Beethoven and melody...

[Preston]

It seems I have read several times, including this forum, that Beethoven was not a composer who wanted to work too much with melody. I was wondering if this is correct, and, what Beethoven's thoughts were on melody?

[Peter]

Beethoven like Haydn was very much concerned with form and structure which is the basis of the classical style. Short thematic material or motiffs are better suited to development than long lyrical melodies which is why some of the early Romantics were less successful constraining themselves within the classical forms. This does not mean that Beethoven couldn't write a good tune, but he wasn't a naturally lyrical composer such as Schubert, Tchaikovsky or Dvorak.

[Preston]

Thank you for the reply Peter.

I find the subject of Beethoven and melody quite fascinating. One thought, that comes to mind is the Pastoral Symphony. It does seem to be quite melodic, although I am not entirely sure?

What I am thinking, is that melody can be a way to capture beauty, etc., and, a way to make the music more catchy, so to say- so perhaps this was one reason Beethoven stayed away from it?

Am I correct in saying that the Choral of the 9th has a pretty fair amount of melodic content?

Also, did Beethoven ever comment on his lack of use of melody, or melody in general?

[Peter]

Thank you for the reply Peter.

I find the subject of Beethoven and melody quite fascinating. One thought, that comes to mind is the Pastoral Symphony. It does seem to be quite melodic, although I am not entirely sure?

What I am thinking, is that melody can be a way to capture beauty, etc., and, a way to make the music more catchy, so to say- so perhaps this was one reason Beethoven stayed away from it?

Am I correct in saying that the Choral of the 9th has a pretty fair amount of melodic content?

Also, did Beethoven ever comment on his lack of use of melody, or melody in general?

Beethoven didn't 'stay away' from melody! There are plenty of examples of melodies in Beethoven such as the slow movement of the Pastoral symphony you mentioned, but he is not naturally a lyrical composer in the way of Schubert for example. Beethoven was interested in the potential for development of ideas, and short motiffs as in the 4th piano concerto or the 5th symphony suit this purpose best. Beethoven learnt this from Haydn (although he probably wouldn't have admitted it!) - both composers were very much concerned with form and structure and the proportions of a work. The sketch books bare this out with the painstaking workings out of themes Beethoven would undertake somtimes over many years - contrast that with the spontaneous inspiration of the naturally lyrical Schubert who could turn out beautiful perfectly crafted melodies on a daily basis.

[Michael]

"Many, many composers have been able to write heavenly tunes and respectable fugues. Some composers can orchestrate the c-major scale so that it sounds like a masterpiece, or fool with notes so that a harmonic novelty is achieved. But all this is mere dust - nothing compared to the magic ingredient sought by them all : the inexplicable ability to know what the next note has to be. Beethoven had this gift in a degree that leaves them all panting in the rear guard."

Leonard Bernstein wrote the above and while it's a bit over the top, it is worth bearing in mind that he was a composer himself and knew what he was talking about.
I have found over the years that Beethoven's themes (to call them tunes is to trivialize them) have grown in melodic stature, speaking personally, of course. Quite a lot of the classical "big tunes" now leave me cold, whereas Beethoven's seemingly plainer "material" keeps on revealing its inner melodic power. Yesterday, I was listening and marvelling at the funeral march from the A flat piano sonata. The theme for, the most part, consisted of a single note repeated over and over for umpteen bars, but the rhythm and harmony kept me enthralled and I was never conscious for a moment of listening to an inferior "melody". Without wishing to sound pretentious, I think Beethoven is always composing at a much deeper level than the vast majority of other composers.

[Preston]

Thank you for the replies and information.

Without wishing to sound pretentious, I think Beethoven is always composing at a much deeper level than the vast majority of other composers.

I agree with this Michael. Just some thoughts- Perhaps this is why Beethoven took his themes so seriously, spending years on them, because they were on a whole other level? Schubert could write a very beautiful theme, but, is the thought as deep as with Beethoven's unimaginable deeply thought out themes and thoughts?

Bernstein also once said something like, "leave it to other composers for your melodies, etc., leave it to Beethoven to write of the heavens and Earth".

Peter, when you mention about the lyricism of Beethoven, is this a similar reason why other composers said he could not write well for the voice? The reason I ask is just that I have thought that Beethoven could write well for voice, and the reason they did not think he could is because he wrote so different and strangely, so to say.

In short, I do not think Beethoven tried to capture the "beautifully lyrical" aspects of music, so to say, but, that he looked at beauty different, and found beauty in things most people would not expect.

[Preston]

Listening to the Adagio from Bach's Violin Sonata in D-minor, but played on cello. So serious and spiritual. It is very touching to hear something from a man apparently extremely spiritual. I think that I have had my first real taste of Bach's music- but, I know that his music goes much further than what I hear.

I began thinking about lyricism while listening to the Bach sonata. It does seem to my ears to be very lyrical- yet, Beethoven, I feel, would purposely not write like this. Only in Beethoven's early period, and a few pieces from his middle and late, do I hear lyricism similar to this. I stand by what I said that the reason for Beethoven's lack of lyricism is probably because after his earlier period, I feel, that he may have looked at lyrical beauty in music much different.

It seems to me that the notes that Bach uses to capture lyrical aspects, Beethoven instead turns to dissonance and diminishes them, but, only after his early period?

Perhaps, I am completely wrong? Either way, back to the Bach, .

[Preston]

Beethoven like Haydn was very much concerned with form and structure which is the basis of the classical style. Short thematic material or motiffs are better suited to development than long lyrical melodies which is why some of the early Romantics were less successful constraining themselves within the classical forms. This does not mean that Beethoven couldn't write a good tune, but he wasn't a naturally lyrical composer such as Schubert, Tchaikovsky or Dvorak.

Yes, Peter I finally see what you are saying. Beethoven was perfectly capable of writing a melody. He wrote a ton of them! Yet, he was not the most lyrical composer, this now makes sense.

The second movement of The Pastoral is quite smooth and elegant, full of warmth. Which is to my ears unbelievably lyrical. You are right, it is rarer to hear this from Beethoven.

I do have a question. Why did Beethoven use so much dissonance- think that is the word. For instance, in the Eroica he starts the theme in E-flat then, to my understanding, turns the broken E-flat major to, one note, C#?

Is it possible that he found beauty in dissonance?

In the 4th piano concerto he starts out G-major, then, after about 1:15 he brings in a harsh A-minor?

Edit- I think it may be because I am not hearing what Beethoven is trying to say. Yet, at the same time, I think I am getting a much better feeling for classical. I think I was missing the seriousness of what Beethoven is saying with his music.

[Peter]

Yes, Peter I finally see what you are saying. Beethoven was perfectly capable of writing a melody. He wrote a ton of them! Yet, he was not the most lyrical composer, this now makes sense.

The second movement of The Pastoral is quite smooth and elegant, full of warmth. Which is to my ears unbelievably lyrical. You are right, it is rarer to hear this from Beethoven.

I do have a question. Why did Beethoven use so much dissonance- think that is the word. For instance, in the Eroica he starts the theme in E-flat then, to my understanding, turns the broken E-flat major to, one note, C#?

Is it possible that he found beauty in dissonance?

In the 4th piano concerto he starts out G-major, then, after about 1:15 he brings in a harsh A-minor?

Edit- I think it may be because I am not hearing what Beethoven is trying to say. Yet, at the same time, I think I am getting a much better feeling for classical. I think I was missing the seriousness of what Beethoven is saying with his music.

Dissonance is an essential element in music and not confined to Beethoven! The function of dissonance is to create tension and excitement, without it music can be quite dull. The important point though with composers up until the 20th century was that dissonance was followed by resolution. The most dissonant part in the Eroica is actually where he blasts out an F major triad combined with the note E several times with full orchestra in the development section and creates great excitement and tension by delaying the resolution. There are some wonderfully dissonant passages in Bach - the D minor prelude book 1 for example. It was not until the 20th century however that composers saw beauty in dissonance alone and dispensed with the resolution so essential to earlier music - Wagner led the way here with the famous opening chords of Tristan which do not properly resolve, but sort of leave the music unanswered until several bars later. Neither the Eroica nor the 4th concerto examples you give are really dissonance - they are simply chords or modulation. A dissonance is a clash between two or more notes that do not belong to the same chord - just try playing that F major chord with an E and you'll see (hear) what I mean!

[Michael]

Dissonance described without taking a hundred pages. Excellent, Peter.

[Peter]

Dissonance described without taking a hundred pages. Excellent, Peter.

Thank you Michael. but that is an open invitation for censure from Professor Philip Von Strasbourg who has an abhorrence of simplification and an allergic reaction to any compliments directed at yours truly!

[Michael]

Thank you Michael. but that is an open invitation for censure from Professor Philip Von Strasbourg who has an abhorrence of simplification and an allergic reaction to any compliments directed at yours truly!

Okay, Peter, I'll rescue you! Your definition was too simple and 99 pages short. How about that?

[Preston]

Thanks for that good information Peter.

[Euan Mackinnon]

Dissonance described without taking a hundred pages. Excellent, Peter.

I agree, Michael, excellent indeed in what is a fascinating thread.

So, Peter, could I request you to turn your forensic mind, extensive knowledge of music, and crisp writing style to defining for me the following terms used in this thread:

Melody
Lyricism
Theme/Motif.

No dictionary I have consulted provides a satisfactory definition for any of these. Take one definition of Melody, for example: a sequence of single notes that is musically satisfying. This has the virtue of being simple but the drawback of posing more questions than it answers.

Thank you

Euan

PS: To avoid any possible misunderstanding, my request (and my compliments to Peter) is (and are) entirely serious.

[Peter]

I agree, Michael, excellent indeed in what is a fascinating thread.

So, Peter, could I request you to turn your forensic mind, extensive knowledge of music, and crisp writing style to defining for me the following terms used in this thread:

Melody
Lyricism
Theme/Motif.

No dictionary I have consulted provides a satisfactory definition for any of these. Take one definition of Melody, for example: a sequence of single notes that is musically satisfying. This has the virtue of being simple but the drawback of posing more questions than it answers.

Thank you

Euan

PS: To avoid any possible misunderstanding, my request (and my compliments to Peter) is (and are) entirely serious.

Well I'll be brief. Lyrical is basically consisting of a vocal quality - singable. Melody has this lyrical element and is usually extended over several bars and phrases e.g. Schubert Trout quintet 4th movt. Motiff is generally shorter and the rhythmic component is of more importance than the lyrical, e.g Beethoven Op.18/1 first movt.