Fur Elise

[Hofrat]

Peter;

Manuscripts have lives of their own and end up in the hands of all sorts of people. So, just because Therese Malfatti owned the original MS does not carry much weight. And what more, the original MS is lost, which, as sad as it may be, is the demise of many MS's. As I wrote before, the Kopitz article is not very detailed and we should await the Beethovenhaus publication.

[Peter]

Peter;

Manuscripts have lives of their own and end up in the hands of all sorts of people. So, just because Therese Malfatti owned the original MS does not carry much weight. And what more, the original MS is lost, which, as sad as it may be, is the demise of many MS's. As I wrote before, the Kopitz article is not very detailed and we should await the Beethovenhaus publication.

Well it's some coincidence that it ended up in the hands of a woman Beethoven was pursuing around the composition date time of 1810 and that she kept this manuscript until her death in 1851. The dedication stated that it was a memento with the expression "zur Erinnerung an' which generally implies an imminent separation. The piece was dated 27th April and soon after that the Malfattis left Vienna for Walkersdorf. Kinsky/Halm have also suggested that the songs Op.83 nos 1-2 were probably composed by Beethoven in the spring of 1810 for Therese. Granted it isn't conclusive but it is a strong case - when is the Beethovenhaus publication due?

[Hofrat]

As I understand, the articl will be released next year.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Well it's some coincidence that it ended up in the hands of a woman Beethoven was pursuing around the composition date time of 1810 and that she kept this manuscript until her death in 1851. The dedication stated that it was a memento with the expression "zur Erinnerung an' which generally implies an imminent separation. The piece was dated 27th April and soon after that the Malfattis left Vienna for Walkersdorf. Kinsky/Halm have also suggested that the songs Op.83 nos 1-2 were probably composed by Beethoven in the spring of 1810 for Therese. Granted it isn't conclusive but it is a strong case - when is the Beethovenhaus publication due?

Kopitz's hypothesis hasn't got a leg to stand on and he will face serious problems in his projected publication trying to keep his pants up. A few facts:

1) There is no proof that Frau Röckel's relationship with Beethoven went closer than a few meetings.
2) Röckel's name was Maria Eva. In no other Viennese sources (all unknown to Kopitz) except the baptismal entry of her first son in 1814 is she called "Elise". Once she even appears as "Therese Hummel" Ain't that funny?
3) There is absolutely no connection between Frau Hummel and the Malfatti family. Hummel dedicated a sonata for piano and mandolin to a certain "Franz Mora de Malfatti", but this man's real name was just Franz Mora.
4) Frau Hummel is supposed to have kept Beethoven's lock of hair while she gave away her most treasured music autograph 20 years before her death? Absurd. She didn't need money, she was a very wealthy widow.
5) There is no connection between Frau Hummel in Weimar and the owner of the autograph in 1863 Babette Bredl in Munich. It is a fact however that in 1851 Therese von Malfatti left her piano and all her music to the pianist Rudolf Schachner who lived in Munich ...
6) Frau Hummel never sat at Beethoven's deathbed. She was busy raising her two sons in Weimar.

[Peter]

Kopitz's hypothesis hasn't got a leg to stand on and he will face serious problems in his projected publication trying to keep his pants up. A few facts:

1) There is no proof that Frau Röckel's relationship with Beethoven went closer than a few meetings.
2) Röckel's name was Maria Eva. In no other Viennese sources (all unknown to Kopitz) except the baptismal entry of her first son in 1814 is she called "Elise". Once she even appears as "Therese Hummel" Ain't that funny?
3) There is absolutely no connection between Frau Hummel and the Malfatti family. Hummel dedicated a sonata for piano and mandolin to a certain "Franz Mora de Malfatti", but this man's real name was just Franz Mora.
4) Frau Hummel is supposed to have kept Beethoven's lock of hair while she gave away her most treasured music autograph 20 years before her death? Absurd. She didn't need money, she was a very wealthy widow.
5) There is no connection between Frau Hummel in Weimar and the owner of the autograph in 1863 Babette Bredl in Munich. It is a fact however that in 1851 Therese von Malfatti left her piano and all her music to the pianist Rudolf Schachner who lived in Munich ...
6) Frau Hummel never sat at Beethoven's deathbed. She was busy raising her two sons in Weimar.

Thank you for those clarifications Cetto and hello again!

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Peter;

Manuscripts have lives of their own and end up in the hands of all sorts of people. So, just because Therese Malfatti owned the original MS does not carry much weight. And what more, the original MS is lost, which, as sad as it may be, is the demise of many MS's. As I wrote before, the Kopitz article is not very detailed and we should await the Beethovenhaus publication.

Kopitz's article has been turned down by the Beethovenhaus and will not be published in the Beethoven Studien . When Kopitz announced the publication in the BBS last year, he did so without having a commitment from Bonn.

[Hofrat]

Thnk you for that update.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Having his article refused by the Beethoven-Haus Kopitz decided to roll it out into a small book which has been published recently. The only difference between the article and the book are a number of extended quotations and the fact that the author was finally told that the painter of the portraits of Hummel and his wife was not a spurious "Möller" (as supposed by Kopitz), but (who else?) Josef Willibrord Mähler. The rest of Kopitz's documentation is so poorly knitted (he never did any research in Viennese archives), that his hypothesis simply falls apart at the seams. Elisabeth Hummel never called herself "Elise", she called herself Betty. The one source Kopitz hinges his theory on is almost worthless, because Elisabeth Hummel was not present at the baptism of her first son. Kopitz is surprisingly ignorant of the literature and doesn't know that Babette Bredl's date of death has already been published in 1977.

[Roehre]

C von C, Thank you for the Update

[Hofrat]

I second that. Good sleuthing, Cetto!!

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Since it has recently been established that Babette Bredl was indeed a relative of Josef Rudolf Schachner, who in 1851 inherited Therese von Droßdik's music, Kopitz's theory can be considered a massive non-starter, or rather a "musicological" corpse. Updates will follow.

[distractedmusician]

Is there any truth to this story? From http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/beethovenmature.html


In 1810, Beethoven’s life was marked by an event that caused him much suffering. In the spring of 1809, the forty-year-old composer fell in love with a student – the beautiful eighteen-year-old Therese Malfatti. The composer considered the esteem and devotion Tereza held for him to be love. So confident in his future with this young girl, Beethoven even thought of marriage (in a letter to his good friend Wegeler, he asked for his birth certificate from Bonn required for marriage).

But his wish never came true. In fact there is a small story related to this. In the spring of 1810 he was invited to the Malfatti household for a party thrown by Therese’s father for his acquaintances and business partners. Beethoven wanted to propose marriage to her on that night after playing a bagatelle he had composed especially for her. Unfortunately he got so drunk that night that he was unable to play or to propose to anyone. All he could do is write Therese’s name on the title page of the bagatelle. He wrote : " Fur Therese ", but in almost illegible writing. When the manuscript was found (on Therese’s death) it was published but since the writing was illegible it became " Fur Elise".

[Hofrat]

Thanks again for the update, Cetto.

[Michael]

In the spring of 1810 he was invited to the Malfatti household for a party thrown by Therese’s father for his acquaintances and business partners. Beethoven wanted to propose marriage to her on that night after playing a bagatelle he had composed especially for her. Unfortunately he got so drunk that night that he was unable to play or to propose to anyone. All he could do is write Therese’s name on the title page of the bagatelle. He wrote : " Fur Therese ", but in almost illegible writing. When the manuscript was found (on Therese’s death) it was published but since the writing was illegible it became " Fur Elise".

Welcome to the forum, DM! I don't know about "Fur Elise" but you have reminded me that on the occasion you mention above, Beethoven wrote a little piece for Malfatti which has become known as the "Rustic (or Rural) Cantata)", although it's always included with the lieder. Without digging it out, I think it starts off with "Viva, Viva, Viva Giovanni ......"

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Is there any truth to this story? From http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/beethovenmature.html


In 1810, Beethoven’s life was marked by an event that caused him much suffering. In the spring of 1809, the forty-year-old composer fell in love with a student – the beautiful eighteen-year-old Therese Malfatti. The composer considered the esteem and devotion Tereza held for him to be love. So confident in his future with this young girl, Beethoven even thought of marriage (in a letter to his good friend Wegeler, he asked for his birth certificate from Bonn required for marriage).

But his wish never came true. In fact there is a small story related to this. In the spring of 1810 he was invited to the Malfatti household for a party thrown by Therese’s father for his acquaintances and business partners. Beethoven wanted to propose marriage to her on that night after playing a bagatelle he had composed especially for her. Unfortunately he got so drunk that night that he was unable to play or to propose to anyone. All he could do is write Therese’s name on the title page of the bagatelle. He wrote : " Fur Therese ", but in almost illegible writing. When the manuscript was found (on Therese’s death) it was published but since the writing was illegible it became " Fur Elise".

The first paragraph is correct, the second is complete hokum.

And BTW the physician Dr. Johann Malfatti for whom Beethoven wrote the cantata "Lieto brindisi" was not Therese's father, but her father's cousin. Therese's father was the merchant Jacob Friedrich Malfatti von Rohrenbach zu Dezza.