Fur Elise

[terry]

BERLINO Scoperto il mistero sull'identità della donna a cui Ludwig van Beethoven dedicò nel 1810 la celebre bagatella per pianoforte «Per Elisa», di cui è andata persa la partitura originale. Klaus Martin Kopitz, studioso del musicista di Bonn, ha scoperto l'identità di Elisa dopo aver compiuto ricerche nell'archivio del Duomo di Santo Stefano a Vienna. La destinataria della breve composizione musicale sarebbe Elisabeth Roeckel, nata nel 1793 e morta nel 1883, sorella minore di un cantante lirico amico di Beethoven. Elisabeth, che in privato si faceva chiamare Elise, divenne in seguito un soprano e sposò il musicista Johann Nepomuk Hummel, amico e rivale artistico di Beethoven.

Translation (short) it seems that Elise was Elisabeth Rockel , a singer's younger sister. Privately she was called Elise and married Hummel. Discovered bu KM Kopitz in Berlin, who made researches in the St.Stephan Church in Wien.

[Peter]

Interesting Terry but how does he explain why Therese Malfatti owned the original autograph up till her death in 1851?

[terry]

Interesting Terry but how does he explain why Therese Malfatti owned the original autograph up till her death in 1851?

Don't know,we should have the occasion to read mr Kopitz. Perhaps some German or German speaking forumists here could find some more on the web or in newspapers! Is anyone here?

[Hollywood]

Yesterday I read about this topic in one of the Vienna newspapers. I was then able to find an article about it on a UK newspaper site here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ic-expert.html

[Hofrat]

The newspaper article is not very detailed. I guess we will have to wait for the Beethovenhaus publication on the subject.

[Michael]

I just hope the animal rights people don't get involved in this!

[Peter]

I think Kopitz's theory is very tenuous indeed, not least because the issue of the manuscript being in the possession of Therese Malfatti has not been dealt with as far as I am aware.

[Hofrat]

It is most interesting that no thought about Elisabeth Rockel Hummel as the "Elise" of "Fur Elise." She was at Beethoven's bed side nearly every day during the last month or two taking care of him. I guess there is truth to the old adage that one can not see the forest because of the trees.

[Peter]

It is most interesting that no thought about Elisabeth Rockel Hummel as the "Elise" of "Fur Elise." She was at Beethoven's bed side nearly every day during the last month or two taking care of him. I guess there is truth to the old adage that one can not see the forest because of the trees.

Not sure what your point is here Hofrat - Kopitz is claiming Elisabeth Rockel was Elise.

[Hofrat]

I just thought it odd that no one considered Elisabeth Rockel as Elise before this. Here is the only woman in Beethoven's circle who goes by the nickname "Elise." And with Beethoven's infatuation with young women, the claim by Kopitz has merit.

[Michael]

According to Barry Cooper and others, "Elise" was a common nickname for a young woman in Beethoven's time. Indeed, the name comes into his first published song, "Schilderung eines Madchens", WoO107.

[Hofrat]

"Schilderung eines Madchens" WoO 107 was written in 1783. Beethoven was but 13 years old. I seriously doubt that he had an infatuation with a woman then. He probably received a text and made a music setting for it. In the text was the name Elise. This is different than writing a song for Elise.

I return to the question, "Is there anyone else in Beethoven's circle that had the name "Elise" other than Elisabeth Rockel?

[Hofrat]

CD notes from a Naxos recording:
"Hummel had already given up his career as a virtuoso and intended to establish himself as a composer and teacher in Vienna. There he met the Burgtheater singer Elisabeth Rockel, sister of the tenor who had sung Florestan in the second version of Beethoven's opera Fidelio. They married in 1813, with Salieri as their witness, although Beethoven had also shown interest in her. The daughter of a hosier from the Palatinate, she had made her debut as a singer in 1810 at the age of seventeen. In three years she had made her name at second class German opera houses, as Donna Anna in Mozart's Don Giovanni in Bamberg, where the conductor E.T.A. Hoffmann, a married man, but susceptible to young women, was so captivated by her as to make her the principal character in his eroticdecadent novel Don Juan. After their marriage Elisabeth Hummel took over the management of her husband's career, persuading him to resume his activity as a virtuoso pianist."

[Michael]

"Schilderung eines Madchens" WoO 107 was written in 1783. Beethoven was but 13 years old. I seriously doubt that he had an infatuation with a woman then. He probably received a text and made a music setting for it. In the text was the name Elise. This is different than writing a song for Elise.

I was not implying that it was the same Elise: how could it be? I was just mentioning that the fact that this name could be used as a nickname or term of endearment.

[Peter]

"Schilderung eines Madchens" WoO 107 was written in 1783. Beethoven was but 13 years old. I seriously doubt that he had an infatuation with a woman then. He probably received a text and made a music setting for it. In the text was the name Elise. This is different than writing a song for Elise.

I return to the question, "Is there anyone else in Beethoven's circle that had the name "Elise" other than Elisabeth Rockel?

Elisabeth Rockel did not die until 1883 so why was the original manuscript in the possession of Therese Malfatti? Surely she would not have parted with such a treasured momento if it had been written specially for her and if her feelings for Beethoven were as fond as is implied by her presence at his deathbed? This is the major stumbling block to the theory. I am convinced the piece was written for the lady who owned the original manuscript - Therese Malfatti.