how would Beethoven compose today?

[Preston]

After reading Chris' post, I was wondering if you thought that if Beethoven was alive today or in the future would he stick strictly to the orchestra or would he use some super synthesizers?

I mean, if a synthesizer existed, where you could not only create symphonic or orchestral sounds but also any sound, would he have stuck to the orchestra? I imagine that he would have, as Chris pointed out, use the frequencies that he needed, and that the sound would depend on the certain frequency?

So, in short would his music sound slightly different to us, because of the sounds? Would he have written the same pieces?

[Chris]

If Beethoven lived today, the environment he grew up in would have produced such a radically different individual that we could not even begin to speculate. A more interesting question would be to consider Beethoven, at the height of his creative powers, brought forward in time, trained in today's technology, and had his hearing restored. Of course, then you have to wonder about the last two centuries of music and how it might affect him. So many variables...

[Preston]

If Beethoven lived today, the environment he grew up in would have produced such a radically different individual that we could not even begin to speculate. A more interesting question would be to consider Beethoven, at the height of his creative powers, brought forward in time, trained in today's technology, and had his hearing restored. Of course, then you have to wonder about the last two centuries of music and how it might affect him. So many variables...

Good points Chris, and thank you for clarifying some of my rambling, !

Here is the scenario, in my mind, now:

Let's say that Beethoven was about to write the Hammerklavier, his first major late period work (I think?), and all of a sudden he was transported into the future where he had access to a great synthesizer that could produce any sound, , and he understood the synthesizer completely. What do you (plural) think, the great genius, would have done?

If there is a better scenario, please post!

[Preston]

just a thought

I was thinking about something Chris said, about frequencies. I said before that I think color would partially depend on the frequency. But, Chris got me thinking about frequency in general.

This is just a thought, but perhaps a composer such as Beethoven depends on frequency. What I mean is, for instance, when Beethoven went deaf completely, he would say that he felt vibrations, and that is how he wrote his music. Although, perhaps he felt frequency through vibration, and that this is how he wrote?

I mean if we take the violin, each sound or even nuance of sound from the violin, provides a different frequency, unless it is possible to play the same exact frequency over, which I do not know if it could be done because it seems that we feel more of the pattern and form, instead of the frequency. Perhaps Beethoven felt these frequencies though, and completely understood them. Perhaps this is what the "vibrations" were all about!

If Beethoven did understand frequency completely then our understanding of his music would change, not completely but greatly. Could such a genius exist, that relied on frequency, instead of rhythm, patterns, form, etc.? I think so.

When I say Beethoven relied on frequency, I am thinking of his late period and the vibrations. We hear what he wants us to hear... but with such a genius, could he have been a frequency genius and never really spoke of it?

If he did depend on frequency, in his late period, or any period of his, as his primary musical source then I think that it changes things.

I feel that Beethoven's music, may all depend on precise frequency, which perhaps almost only he understood. If he did base his music primarily on frequencies then what would one frequency create? Not to mention the billions of other frequencies the orchestra can produce.

I mean, if we take one instrument and play the exact frequency again and again, which I doubt any regular human mind could do, then we add another violin playing the exact same freqency- imagine the effect!

Not only to say the frequency is just sound- perhaps it is color, or images, or visuals, etc.

I imagine that the orchestra could create an almost infinite amount of frequencies! The possibilities of the music would be endless.

In short, I know that while say, Milstein, was a great violinist, he played the patterns, form, rhythms, melody, etc., of the violin, when perhaps he should have played the frequencies with Beethoven. This would be impossible though, no human mind that I know has ever reported being able to play exactly precise frequencies again and again.

Although perhaps Beethoven, and his vibrations, could do this.

[Chris]

Not only to say the frequency is just sound- perhaps it is color, or images, or visuals, etc.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Sound waves do have a frequency, of course, and colors represent different frequencies of electromagnetic radiation, but they are really two entirely different things. Sound waves are mechanical waves (they propogate through a medium), and light waves are self-propogating waves (propogate through no medium). In fact, it is difficult to imagine what the "frequency" of light even means. What is happening in a cycle? Light isn't just a wave, it is also a particle, and that dual nature is very difficult to comprehend. As for images and visuals, those cannot be represented just by frequency.

In short, I know that while say, Milstein, was a great violinist, he played the patterns, form, rhythms, melody, etc., of the violin, when perhaps he should have played the frequencies with Beethoven. This would be impossible though, no human mind that I know has ever reported being able to play exactly precise frequencies again and again.

Humans may not be able to reproduce sound exactly the same way every time, but computers can, and it turns out it's extremely boring. In fact, a lot of programming work has gone into getting computers to NOT do that.

[Peter]

After reading Chris' post, I was wondering if you thought that if Beethoven was alive today or in the future would he stick strictly to the orchestra or would he use some super synthesizers?

I mean, if a synthesizer existed, where you could not only create symphonic or orchestral sounds but also any sound, would he have stuck to the orchestra? I imagine that he would have, as Chris pointed out, use the frequencies that he needed, and that the sound would depend on the certain frequency?

So, in short would his music sound slightly different to us, because of the sounds? Would he have written the same pieces?

He definitely would and could not have written the same pieces today. Prokofiev tried to write a symphony in 1917 that he thought Haydn would be writing had he been alive - the result, his symphony no.1 'Classical' is a delight!

[Preston]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Sound waves do have a frequency, of course, and colors represent different frequencies of electromagnetic radiation, but they are really two entirely different things. Sound waves are mechanical waves (they propogate through a medium), and light waves are self-propogating waves (propogate through no medium). In fact, it is difficult to imagine what the "frequency" of light even means. What is happening in a cycle? Light isn't just a wave, it is also a particle, and that dual nature is very difficult to comprehend. As for images and visuals, those cannot be represented just by frequency.

Humans may not be able to reproduce sound exactly the same way every time, but computers can, and it turns out it's extremely boring. In fact, a lot of programming work has gone into getting computers to NOT do that.

It is hard to explain. It is really just an idea about Beethoven's late period. You really bring up some very well thought out ideas and understandings!

I mean, we are really talking in terms of the supernatural or divine, I think, concerning a complete understanding of precise frequency. Perhaps Beethoven did become so unimaginably filled with spirituality and the divine that he tapped into another world?

Images and visuals, cannot be represented by frequency- as we know it. Although, perhaps precise frequency can represent color, it is just so far beyond our understanding.

You mention computer programming, I am actually majoring in programming and I have thought in the past about the limitations of programming. With programming as we know it, it has a lot of limitations, but with a new programming language that could do things we couldn't begin to imagine, perhaps capturing color or visuals through frequency could be possible. It is similar to tapping into the divine, I think. The reason I decided to major in programming was to see exactly what it is capable of, and how far it can go, which seems almost infinite. I have thought about capturing colors and images of music through some type of computer program, which turns the music into visuals. It would really depend on the composer and how well he composed, so to say, I think.

What I mean when I say infinite about programming, is that if you were so advanced at programming, much like Beethoven was at music, then perhaps you could create some of the greatest sounds, colors, and visuals, that could ever be created. I doubt that this could ever happen- because it would take such a knowledge of programming that, I believe it to be almost impossible.

Anyway, my idea about one program, I have in mind, that would seem to be impossible to achieve, is this- if sound frequencies, could produce colors and visuals (which I feel they probably could on a more supernatural level) then create a program that understood these colors of frequency, and then turn it in into some type of movie based on the precise frequencies of the music, such as Beethoven's. For instance, if we take the Hammerklavier, understood every note of it completely, every frequency of it completely, and everything about it (seems impossible doesn't it?), then perhaps it would provide colors and visuals, that could be turned into something. So, you sit down to watch and listen to the Hammerklavier.

I also, have some other ideas about programming to create music and movies, so great and perfect, without even using a GUI- just programming.

These are just ideas, and I am not saying that Beethoven did understand some type of supreme supernatural sounds, but if any one did, it would probably be him.

I know, all of this seems impossible, but perhaps?

[Preston]

He definitely would and could not have written the same pieces today. Prokofiev tried to write a symphony in 1917 that he thought Haydn would be writing had he been alive - the result, his symphony no.1 'Classical' is a delight!

But what about the second scenario, after Chris' first post? What would the Hammerklavier sound like?

[Chris]

I mean, we are really talking in terms of the supernatural or divine, I think, concerning a complete understanding of precise frequency. Perhaps Beethoven did become so unimaginably filled with spirituality and the divine that he tapped into another world?

The man was a fine composer, the greatest ever, in my opinion, but I don't think he had more than a basic understanding of frequency. And I don't think he was particularly filled with spirituality or the divine.

Images and visuals, cannot be represented by frequency- as we know it. Although, perhaps precise frequency can represent color, it is just so far beyond our understanding.

Color can certainly be represented by frequency. Red, for example, is in the range of 400 to 484 THz.

You mention computer programming, I am actually majoring in programming and I have thought in the past about the limitations of programming. With programming as we know it, it has a lot of limitations, but with a new programming language that could do things we couldn't begin to imagine, perhaps capturing color or visuals through frequency could be possible.

Do you really think programming languages are limited? I don't. Assuming the language is Turing-complete, which they mostly are, it is really quite powerful, and certainly capable of solving any problem you could think of for it.

What I mean when I say infinite about programming, is that if you were so advanced at programming, much like Beethoven was at music, then perhaps you could create some of the greatest sounds, colors, and visuals, that could ever be created.

I think all you need for this is Photoshop...

Anyway, my idea about one program, I have in mind, that would seem to be impossible to achieve, is this- if sound frequencies, could produce colors and visuals (which I feel they probably could on a more supernatural level) then create a program that understood these colors of frequency, and then turn it in into some type of movie based on the precise frequencies of the music, such as Beethoven's. For instance, if we take the Hammerklavier, understood every note of it completely, every frequency of it completely, and everything about it (seems impossible doesn't it?), then perhaps it would provide colors and visuals, that could be turned into something. So, you sit down to watch and listen to the Hammerklavier.

Well, a lot of music playing software has a visualization feature. But I usually just turn it off!

[Preston]

The man was a fine composer, the greatest ever, in my opinion, but I don't think he had more than a basic understanding of frequency. And I don't think he was particularly filled with spirituality or the divine.

As I said, I do not know if he did, although, I feel, that he might have had an understanding of frequency. I do feel that Beethoven came as close to the divine as any human, perhaps I am wrong. I believe strongly that some type of divine exist.

Do you really think programming languages are limited? I don't. Assuming the language is Turing-complete, which they mostly are, it is really quite powerful, and certainly capable of solving any problem you could think of for it.

Believe me, I think computer programming is one of the most powerful things the human race has ever invented. I feel that they are limited to certain things, as of now, perhaps I am wrong?

Well, a lot of music playing software has a visualization feature. But I usually just turn it off!

I turn the cheap visual crap off too. What I am talking about is a program, lets drop the music, that you can create CGI without a GUI. It seems almost impossible to me, but somewhere in the future, perhaps 100s of thousands of years from now, it could be done. I am not talking cheap hack CGI, I am talking about beyond photo realism, or what we consider photo realism. Where truly, anything, could be created.

I take it you do not like the idea, especially about the music, ?

[Chris]

As I said, I do not know if he did, although, I feel, that he might have had an understanding of frequency. I do feel that Beethoven came as close to the divine as any human, perhaps I am wrong. I believe strongly that some type of divine exist.

I agree, but when I think of people who have gotten close to it, I think of Elijah, Moses, and St. Teresa of Ávila, not Beethoven, who for all his musical ability was really quite worldly.

Believe me, I think computer programming is one of the most powerful things the human race has ever invented. I feel that they are limited to certain things, as of now, perhaps I am wrong?

Modern programming languages can compute every Turing-computable function, so I'm not sure what else you want. I suppose as we move into quantum computing and other new things, we will develop languages that allow us to better exploit our new "hardware", but I'm not convinced of the use of these things yet.

I turn the cheap visual crap off too. What I am talking about is a program, lets drop the music, that you can create CGI without a GUI. It seems almost impossible to me, but somewhere in the future, perhaps 100s of thousands of years from now, it could be done. I am not talking cheap hack CGI, I am talking about beyond photo realism, or what we consider photo realism. Where truly, anything, could be created.

You can pretty much do that now, if you have powerful enough hardware at your disposal. Though I'm not sure how you could go beyond photo-realism or what the point would be if you could. Games with procedurely generated content are more or less doing this very thing. And there are some interesting games that link music and visuals, such as Rez:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4EFNWe4mCc

[Preston]

I agree, but when I think of people who have gotten close to it, I think of Elijah, Moses, and St. Teresa of Ávila, not Beethoven, who for all his musical ability was really quite worldly.

I disagree, I have read numerous passages of The Bible and have a very liberal view towards it, not saying that my way is right. I do hold the great book very close to my heart though. We, as humans, each differ in our spiritual and religious beliefs. I take religion and spirituality as serious as I can. I feel that certain music can be like the voice of the divine, and I feel that Beethoven bellowed it out. Yes he was very humanistic, I would say this is because of his suffering and eccentricity. What better way to get to the divine then through the arts, and particularly through music?

Modern programming languages can compute every Turing-computable function, so I'm not sure what else you want. I suppose as we move into quantum computing and other new things, we will develop languages that allow us to better exploit our new "hardware", but I'm not convinced of the use of these things yet.

I guess what I am thinking, is that you would have to work with the languages to create a new type of program(s) that could create what I am talking about. I am just getting started into programming so I do not know the specifics. It would be a super program, for artistic use. I think of the things it would take to capture other worlds and universes through CGI, and it would take a lot of programming, and someone who was as good as Beethoven was at music at programming. It is just an idea- the frequencies, the programs, etc.

You can pretty much do that now, if you have powerful enough hardware at your disposal. Though I'm not sure how you could go beyond photo-realism or what the point would be if you could. Games with procedurely generated content are more or less doing this very thing.

I feel that an artist such as, Van Gogh, went beyond photo-realism. I am talking about creating say, Earth and beyond, in perfect detail and just as large, through CGI- this is no simple task. Also, where it evolves and grows, just like Earth today. Imagine that programming, !

Yes, I am dreaming, my point about all of this was just a thought. Although, I do feel that many many years into the future this could happen.

[Peter]

But what about the second scenario, after Chris' first post? What would the Hammerklavier sound like?

The Hammerklavier could not have been written today so it is a contradictory question to ask what it would have sounded like! Beethoven born today even if he were still a composer would not be writing music that sounds anything like the Beethoven we know. Your initial question is a hypothetical impossibility with no answer and speculation is fruitless I'm afraid.

[Chris]

What better way to get to the divine then through the arts, and particularly through music?

Well, there is certainly a connection between music and spirituality. You need only look at the use of music in various religious rituals to see that. But I don't think the mastery of music automatically takes one's mind to the divine. What better way? Through prayer, like St. Teresa of Ávila, through the study of theology, like St. Thomas Aquinas, through the study of philosophy like Plato and Aristotle. I think if you want to get at the divine, you must explicitly seek it out; you will not arrive at it incidently through music or any art, though these things certainly enhance the journey.

I guess what I am thinking, is that you would have to work with the languages to create a new type of program(s) that could create what I am talking about. I am just getting started into programming so I do not know the specifics. It would be a super program, for artistic use. I think of the things it would take to capture other worlds and universes through CGI, and it would take a lot of programming, and someone who was as good as Beethoven was at music at programming. It is just an idea- the frequencies, the programs, etc.

John Carmack might be considered the Beethoven of programming, at least for the kind of technology you are talking about. Really, programming is very easy. It's the abstract computer science behind it which is difficult, and that is essentially mathematics. I'm sure Carmack would love to create the things you are describing, and he could probably already do the programming for it; we just have to wait for the hardware to catch up.

I feel that an artist such as, Van Gogh, went beyond photo-realism. I am talking about creating say, Earth and beyond, in perfect detail and just as large, through CGI- this is no simple task. Also, where it evolves and grows, just like Earth today. Imagine that programming, !

Well, there are things with sylized graphics now, and there is certainly some software out there to simulate large and living worlds. I don't think anything is holding us back from this programming-wise. If anything, it's the hardware that is constantly holding us back.

[Preston]

Well, there is certainly a connection between music and spirituality. You need only look at the use of music in various religious rituals to see that. But I don't think the mastery of music automatically takes one's mind to the divine. What better way? Through prayer, like St. Teresa of Ávila, through the study of theology, like St. Thomas Aquinas, through the study of philosophy like Plato and Aristotle. I think if you want to get at the divine, you must explicitly seek it out; you will not arrive at it incidently through music or any art, though these things certainly enhance the journey.

I am not saying that only the master takes one to the divine. I see what you are saying about mastery, but when I look at complete mastery of music it could only be achieved through spirituality, otherwise it would not be mastered, to me. If there was someone who understood music to a complete point of mastery but was not spiritual, at first I would find it impossible, then I would believe that this person is surely not touched with the divine. Beethoven did pray and quite often, according to what I have read, particularly in front of Karl, I think. He would kneel down- stone deaf, with his ears ringing uncontrollably, and filled with music- and pray, because he still believed- which is hard for a lot of people, especially who have seen the complete bitterness of life, yet most of them, mad or not, continue to believe. I find this utterly sad and touching. Either way, I do not wish to talk about spirituality or religion really anymore, seriously. It is a complex and touchy subject for me.

John Carmack might be considered the Beethoven of programming, at least for the kind of technology you are talking about. Really, programming is very easy. It's the abstract computer science behind it which is difficult, and that is essentially mathematics. I'm sure Carmack would love to create the things you are describing, and he could probably already do the programming for it; we just have to wait for the hardware to catch up.

I do not understand. You talk as if creating an accurate and entire perfectly evolving world or universe through programming and CGI, is almost simple? I imagine it to be almost impossible, . Do you not think that in the say, Star Wars galaxy, that the programming they had would blow our minds? I do. We cannot even create completely accurate AI, such as C-3PO or R2, yet. This is what I meant by limited.