did classical music become less spiritual? (just a thought)

[Preston]

I was thinking tonight while I was listening to some of the more ancient music, particularly some of Monteverdi's madrigals, and it seemed that classical music turned away from a primary focus of spirituality, into something else. I am probably wrong.

I mean, when I listen to the ancient composers of the Renaissance and Baroque a lot of the focus seems to be on spirituality. Although, when I listen to the Romantics I do not think this as much? Perhaps the great composers of ancient times deeply concentrated on spirituality through music?

It seems to have ended with Bach, and then been brought back by Beethoven. After Beethoven, there doesn't seem to be a deep focus on spirituality. I know that the Classical, Romantic, Contemporary, etc., composers wrote Requiem Masses and things of that nature, it is just that it seems there isn't the spirituality of Beethoven, Bach, Byrd, Monteverdi, etc., (don't know to many, ).

Not to speak of most of the music today, after listening to it, I think the world has turned into some unimaginable nonspiritual environment, for the most part.

Anyway, this is just a thought.

[Peter]

It depends what you are meaning by 'spiritual'. If you mean primarily religious music then yes the 19th century saw a turning away from this as the ideas of the enlightenment filtered through. During the Renaissance this issue was also paramount and the Church had very strict ideas on what music should be and of course some took it to extremes and thought there should be no music as it was wicked - even the interval known as the tritone was forbidden as it was considered diabolic.

I don't agree with your analysis of it ending with Bach and being brought back by Beethoven. Mozart and Haydn (amongst many other 18th century composers) actually wrote more sacred music than Beethoven and Haydn especially was a very devout man and Mozart's music is often profoundly moving. The list continues beyond Beethoven from Bruckner through to Messiaen and the mystical John Tavener.

I think of the term spiritual as meaning profound and being in touch with something bigger than ourselves, the divine if you like and also a reflection of the human condition which I find in the music of Mahler and Shostakovich as well as earlier masters. Under this definition I agree there is little music of profound spirituality being written now in comparison with the past - there is a desire for instant popularity driven by commercialism that inevitably leads to a lowering of standards which is a reflection of our secular age.

[Preston]

It was just a thought, as I said I was probably wrong. It is hard for me to explain what I meant by spiritual, I would say something similar to a very deep and very studied spirituality, almost like having some kind of relationship with the divine- where spirituality is the 1st and pretty much only focus. I mean, yes I think Mozart's Requiem was a work of profound spirituality, as I have said recently. I meant a deep and strict focus on religion and spirituality, which as of I now, I do not think Mozart had in his earlier years, perhaps I am wrong? It seemed that to me that the last two real composers to take religion and spirituality so seriously were Bach and Beethoven. I mean they put everything they had into the study of this. Peter I am still learning, but I do not see Haydn comparing to the spirituality of composers like Beethoven, Bach, and other spiritual masters of the ancient music, again, perhaps I am wrong?

[Sorrano]

Have you listened to Faure's Requiem? Any of Bruckner's choral works will give you some indication as to how deeply spiritual some of the composers delved. Franck, too, was quite devout (to name a few late romantic composers).

[Preston]

It was just a thought, nothing more. Sorry if I offended anyone.

[Peter]

It was just a thought, nothing more. Sorry if I offended anyone.

No offence taken, it is a good question. Regarding Haydn you know he always thanked God at the end of his scores - Laus deo! He wrote 14 masses plus the deeply felt 7 words of our saviour on the cross. Try listening to the chorus 'The Heavens are telling' from the Creation and tell me this isn't written by a very devout man!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LMsY...eature=related

[Preston]

Peter, my musical skills are not well enough to tell precisely. I only pick up on feelings of a piece, not the whole piece. When I was listening to the Monteverdi, Quarto Libro dei Madrigali, it moved me to tears though. I guess that it depends on the piece for me, and I need a further understanding of music. But do understand, being devout does not always mean that the person is very spiritual. To me great spirituality, is something rare. Not saying that Haydn wasn't spiritual though.

[Preston]

I also want to say that I was not knocking any of the masters, and I am not saying that they were not spiritual. It just seemed that, for instance, Dvorak's 9th doesn't really sound as spiritual Palestrina, and, I was just thinking. It seems that great spirituality is a hard and rare thing to achieve. I mean have any of you achieved it, I know I haven't. I do imagine great spirituality to be great feelings made of purity. I also think that it takes thought and understanding of the divine. It is like Charles Hazlewood said about the Missa Solemnis, in the BBC movie, that Beethoven says that we must give our all, almost more than we can give, to the greater powers, referring to a movement from the Missa Solemnis. I do feel that there are different levels, so to say, of spirituality, I mean surely one person can be more spiritual then another.

I guess that, as Peter said, a large portion of ancient music was based around the churches of the time. That is probably what got me thinking about this.

[Sorrano]

Preston, there was no offense taken here, either. As Peter mentioned, it is a good question and the role of religious belief (or disbelief) does take a lot into play in the various styles that develop. Compare, for example, the requiems of Berlioz, an atheist, to that of Gabriel Faure, a devout Christian. While both have their flairs for drama (albeit the one more subdued) you will note a much more reverent tone in that of Faure, one of adoration.

I named a few of the late 19th Century composers who's background had a great deal of religious influence and hoped to point you in that direction to try some of that music. You can compare, for example, the Symphonies of Tchaikovsky with that of Bruckner, realizing that Bruckner was very devout in his own religion and often quotes from his sacred works throughout the symphonies. The most notable quote, of course, is the 2nd movement of his 7th Symphony in which he quotes from his choral Te Deum, the "non confundar" theme.

Keep on asking questions!! Otherwise you can never come to any answer.

[Preston]

Keep on asking questions!! Otherwise you can never come to any answer.

Thank you for your understanding Sorrano, . Will get back to you in a while.

[Preston]

Sorrano, I thought of a lot of things to say, but in short, I will definitely give Bruckner a listening to. I have never heard any of his sacred music, really any of his music.

It just seemed that way to me, no big deal.

[Peter]

Sorrano, I thought of a lot of things to say, but in short, I will definitely give Bruckner a listening to. I have never heard any of his sacred music, really any of his music.

It just seemed that way to me, no big deal.

I'd start with his 7th symphony, particularly the slow movement.

[Sorrano]

I'd start with his 7th symphony, particularly the slow movement.

The Te Deum is also a good one to go with in conjunction with the 7th Symphony. You get a better feel for that famous "non confundar" theme.

[RichardBlank]

It was just a thought, nothing more. Sorry if I offended anyone.

You brought up a solid point. It really depends on whom is listening and their outlook on the inspiration the music can bring.

[Preston]

Yes, I agree, I was talking in a more broad sense though. I do feel that this is because, as Peter said, the age I was talking of, music focused heavily in the churches and monasteries- quite interesting actually.