Beethoven and Handel

[DavidO]

I've been thinking about (and listening for) thematic, structural, and even emotional similarities between B. and H., and even decided to add some verbal scribbles on the subject to my blog: http://claverandconverse.blogspot.com/

Does anyone know when Beethoven is on record as having first mentioned Handel (in a laudatory way) in his letters, conversation books, or what-have-you? I'm assuming his adulation of Handel dates from not earlier than, say, 1818. Am I way off?

Did B. delve into Handel most deeply during the preparation for the Missa Solemnis? Palestrina may have led forward to Handel.

As I say in my blog, I do think that B. may have had that beautiful Handel aria "Piangero la sorte mia" strongly in mind when he was sculpting the variation theme of Opus 109.

[Peter]

It's probable that Beethoven became more familiar with Handel's music in the late 1790's and early 1800's through his association with Baron Von Swieten. Ries states that Beethoven rated Mozart, Handel then Bach in that order but his knowledge is based on his aquaintance with Beethoven 1801-5. Cipriani Potter noted in 1817 that Beethoven regarded Handel as the greatest composer, but it is clear that he had been high in Beethoven's estimation for a very long time.

[gprengel]

To try and answer one of DavidO's points, Handel's influence can be traced in the Missa Solemnis, the Ninth and and least one of the Diabelli Variations (fugal treatment).

... and above all the glorious Overture "The consecration of the House" op. 124

[Hofrat]

Yes, Gerd, Beethoven took the theme from Handel's "Alexander's Feast." No greater honor.

[DavidO]

But do any of you hear a powerful musical kinship between "Piangerò la sorte mia" & the third movement tema ("Gesangvoll, mit innigster Empfindung") of Opus 109?

Listen very carefully to both & tell me what you think. They're even in the same key (or is the aria in Eb?)

[Peter]

But do any of you hear a powerful musical kinship between "Piangerò la sorte mia" & the third movement tema ("Gesangvoll, mit innigster Empfindung") of Opus 109?

Listen very carefully to both & tell me what you think. They're even in the same key (or is the aria in Eb?)

Yes I do think there are similarities - not sure what key the Handel is in!

[gprengel]

"Piangerò la sorte mia" ??? Where is this aria from?

[Peter]

"Piangerò la sorte mia" ??? Where is this aria from?

Giulio Cesare Act 3.

[gprengel]

ok, I listened to the aria at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5lbVdr-2WU

but couldn't perceive any similiarities to op. 109. At what time would this be?

Gerd

[Peter]

ok, I listened to the aria at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5lbVdr-2WU

but couldn't perceive any similiarities to op. 109. At what time would this be?

Gerd

You're right - I was getting muddled with Lascia ch'io Pianga from Rinaldo whose rhythmic structure is similar to Beethoven's theme and wonder if that was what Davido was also thinking of?

[DavidO]

You're right - I was getting muddled with Lascia ch'io Pianga from Rinaldo whose rhythmic structure is similar to Beethoven's theme and wonder if that was what Davido was also thinking of?

Well, guys, maybe I'm projecting! I just feel the most profound sense of identification in Beethoven with this Handel aria. Play this on your piano & then play the Op. 109 Andante molto cantabile theme. Try them at the same tempo, which helps to emphasize what I feel is the kinship.

Click the thumbnails to expand them.


I feel the spiritual & musical kinship throughout the aria (with the Beethoven Andante molto theme), but most particularly in bars 19-20 & again in bars 35-36.

Further, I consider the Op. 109 1st variation (Molto espressivo) an aria in the sense that the melody line is so reminiscent of a human voice singing.

I'm not familiar with the aria from Rinaldo. I'll look that up.