Beethoven and the Classical style...

[Preston]

I know that most people consider Beethoven to follow the Classical style, such as Mozart and Haydn, in his early and middle periods. Then the Baroque in his late. Right?

But, the "same people", also say that Beethoven differed from the Classical style of Mozart and Haydn, because he did not follow the form as precisely as they did.

I was wondering what the major formal differences are in Beethoven's music, when compared with Haydn and Mozart?

[edit]- I have searched the forum, and found this thread which somewhat concerns this, but am still just trying to figure out some of the major formal differences.

Thanks for any help.

[Peter]

Firstly I think a great number of people still regard Beethoven as the first of the Romantics rather than the last of the Classical. In my remarks on this forum I have differed with this perception and I think Charles Rosen's book demonstrates this case extremely well. Regarding Classical sonata form, remember that the term itself wasn't coined until after the Classical style was over and it was always a very general explanation - Haydn and Mozart rarely adhere rigidly to this form themselves. The real difference particularly in middle period Beethoven is the expansion of the form - take works such as the Eroica lasting twice as long as any previous symphony. Some of the individual sections such as the Coda take on a new importance. Far more important than sonata form itself as a measure of 'classical' composers is tonality and in Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven the increase of tension implied by the tonic-dominant relationship is always paramount. Where Beethoven does differ is that he often uses what Rosen calls 'substitute dominants' for his secondary tonalities - he modulates to the mediant or the submediant, BUT these serve the same purpose as a dominant in that they always imply an increase in tension (as in Mozart and Haydn). The Romantics made greater use of the subdominant as secondary tonality and this implies a decrease in harmonic tension.

[Hofrat]

The following was sent to me by a leading world renown musicologist:

"Beethoven is an 18th-century composer. Don't be fooled by all that Romantic piffle. The man's brilliant manipulation of form and the universality of his vision--he doesn't stoop to autobiography!--is one of the great legacies of the late 18th century."

[Preston]

Thank you for the replies Peter and Hofrat. Peter after reading your through your post quite a number of times, here is what I come up with, .

Why do you think that people still regard Beethoven as one of the first Romantics instead of a Classicist (which I now understand is general use, concerning form) or Baroque?

Is the Classical style a more challenging way of writing music then the Romantic?

Now, about the form, again I do wish I knew more about it. It is such an important thing in understanding the masters. It just seems out of my league, but even children understand it- with the youth orchestra's and all, which are unbelievable. I rely more on feeling when I shouldn't. Classical music has been the hardest music I have tried to understand and feel, fortunately I have made some progress.

So where Beethoven primarily differs, is that he uses 'substitute dominants' for his secondary tonalities. Does this have to do with major/minor tonality, which I have heard you talk of in the past, and it seems to be quite important? Beethoven uses "substitute" dominants, instead of "subdominant" for secondary tonality- is this a substantial difference?

When I hear a work like the Eroica, it does sound different then his 1st and 2nd symphonies? It sounds so broad and it doesn't have a stricter sound, possibly because he is using the substitute dominates, but they do sound quite different from each other?

I will have to research the rest of my questions, don't want to hit you up with to many, , such as what is tonality and tonic-dominant relationship, etc.?

[Peter]

A lot of questions there Preston and I'll try to answer them for you!

I think there is a perception of Beethoven as a Romantic because he is seen as a rebel and an individual who suffered a great deal. This conveniently forgets that Mozart was also a pretty rebellious character and was forced to live by his own means in a way that Beethoven never really was. Handel also was a pretty independent character. The 19th century played a large part in creating a myth around Beethoven that survives to this day - most people know he was deaf, but few realise he wasn't always so and he wasn't totally deaf until the last years of his life. Nor was he always a disheveled mess, but this is the popular 'Romantic' image. So whilst Beethoven had certain 'Romantic' personality traits - his love of nature and a perception of the artist as the highest form of human existence, close to the divine, in his actual music he remained a Classical composer, respecting and building on the achievements of his predecessors.

The Classical forms were challenging to the Romantics because of a shift of emphasis towards lyricism. Melody became far more important than short motivic themes (which lend themselves more naturally to development). Schubert was far more of a bridge between the two styles than Beethoven I think and he often found himself in trouble containing his ideas within the restrictions of sonata form. Tchaikovsky is another good example of a basically melodic composer struggling to contain his lyrical ideas within strict confines. Although Schumann did write some fine symphonies, his greatest work is to be found where he is free of the constraints of sonata form, in his lieder and piano music, often miniatures which for the first time had proper 'Romantic' titles such as 'Dreams' or 'the Poet speaks' instead of the abstract Sonata.

Sonata form itself isn't hard to understand and it is useful to know about when listening to works not only from the classical period but also later in the Romantic period because it was still used by later composers. Basically you have section one: Exposition which consists of two contrasting themes or ideas. Then comes a development section where the ideas are expanded, contracted and combined in all sorts of ways. Then you have the Recapitulation with a repeat of the opening material often with some variation and finally a closing section the Coda (a summing up). Throughout this scheme the piece will pass through many different keys but ultimately returns to its home key - the Tonic. Listen to the last few minutes of Beethoven's 5th for an example of how he hammers home the importance this tonic key - some say he over did it!

Regarding Beethoven's use of 'substitute dominants' let me try to explain further. The strongest relationship in music is between the Tonic (home key) and it's dominant (the 5th of the scale). A piece of music in sonata form it will pass through different keys (straying away from the Tonic home key) and modulate to the Dominant for its secondary tonality (2nd theme). Beethoven often (but not always) substitutes the mediant (3rd of the scale) or the submediant (6th of the scale) for his secondary tonality - the point is that he creates the same increase in tension as is implied by the Dominant. The subdominant (4th of the scale) is a weaker modulation and results in a decrease in tension which Beethoven never does, but the early Romantic composers do, Schubert in the Trout quintet and Schumann and Chopin in several of their major works.

Another difference between the Classical composers and the Romantic I haven't mentioned is their use of Chromaticism. Beethoven and Mozart write passages as chromatic as Wagner, BUT they never obscure the sense of key by doing so - their chromatic writing is always within the confines of a clear harmonic structure. Beethoven is said to have criticised the music of an early Romantic composer Louis Spohr on these very grounds.

[Chris]

The subdominant (4th of the scale) is a weaker modulation and results in a decrease in tension which Beethoven never does.

Is that true? Beethoven never used the subdominant for a secondary theme in a sonata form movement? I could have sworn there were a couple examples of this, but now that I think about it, I can't come up with one.

[Peter]

Is that true? Beethoven never used the subdominant for a secondary theme in a sonata form movement? I could have sworn there were a couple examples of this, but now that I think about it, I can't come up with one.

Rosen states "No comparable subdominant relationship can be found in any work by Beethoven (except those based on ternary ABA, or minuet and trio form)". If you find one let me know!

[Preston]

You have tried and succeeded Peter! Thank you for the thorough reply.

Will get back with you later, am packing for a big trip.

[Preston]

I was really just wondering what the musical terms were concerning the major differences in why people say that Beethoven didn't follow the Classical form, as Haydn and Mozart. I am sure Peter's suggestion also would be to look into theory or a teacher.

The hard part is making the effort, which is why I have not studied theory. I was very close to getting a teacher not to long ago. She followed a certain method, that is supposedly renowned. She also taught a course for the college, it was a level above music appreciation. Unfortunately, I backed out at the last minute, .

Thank you for your suggestions Philip.

[Preston]

The road is long, but the fruit along the way is delicious (if not sometimes forbidden!).

Indeed. To understand music theory, is somewhat of a dream of mine.

[Preston]

There is little point in writing "The strongest relationship in music is between the Tonic (home key) and it's dominant (the 5th of the scale). A piece of music in sonata form it will pass through different keys (straying away from the Tonic home key) and modulate to the Dominant for its secondary tonality (2nd theme)...", or allude to how chromaticism functions in common harmonic practice when Preston clearly has no grasp of such notions.

I am not saying that I am right with this post, in fact I am going out on a limb, but this is what I understand, in a sense. I mean, I think I understand more, but it is hard to type up everything and I am low on time.

If I am correct, the tonic would usually be the key the music is in. So, for instance, if I wrote a piece in C major, C would be the tonic, while G would be the dominant? In order to capture the feelings, or thoughts, you would have to use the other notes, naturally, which in sonata form, would be expanding on the original theme, which I do know is a mixture of notes- just depends on the feeling or thought the composer wanted. I do not understand the part about secondary tonality, although I imagine that the music would, or could, sound like it is in the key of the Dominant- which apparently when it does this it is utilizing the secondary tonality.

It seems to me that a sonata form movement, would, as Peter said, revolve around the main theme- which is quite interesting, that the main theme plays such an important role. Now, when listening to the Eroica, I can hear the main theme and the contrasting theme being used throughout the piece, primarily the main theme, or at least mostly throughout the piece. But there are also many other things going on- different instruments playing the main theme, the same notes of the main theme being played in different articulations- I imagine that all of this is Beethoven taking the importance of the main theme, and then of course building his ideas in so many different ways. Now what are his ideas, ? I feel it but do not understand it, so to say. And so on, concerning sonata form.

Ah, I see, secondary tonality, is not only what the second or contrasting theme is usually written in, but it is also a vital necessity- the strongest "relationship" in music. One of the major differences with Beethoven is that he would substitute, the mediant or submediant for the dominant. Which would probably be very different to what had been happening? Yet he still provides the same increase in tension, interesting how that is possible.

Why would Beethoven never use the subdominant? Very interesting.

There are many other questions, that will come, particularly concerning Beethoven the so-called man of romance- which makes the naive- it seems, insist that he was a Romantic, and I will have to read on tonality and major/minor tonality- seems to be very important. Perhaps he had Romantic touches in his music at times, but all trained scholars, say that he was a classicist.

Peter, I kind of just realized how good your post was, . Not trying to flatter, but dang- pretty detailed material.

I am learning- slowly, but at least it is learning, . Leaving for trip tomorrow, will not be able to post for a few days.

[Peter]

I am not saying that I am right with this post, in fact I am going out on a limb, but this is what I understand, in a sense. I mean, I think I understand more, but it is hard to type up everything and I am low on time.

If I am correct, the tonic would usually be the key the music is in. So, for instance, if I wrote a piece in C major, C would be the tonic, while G would be the dominant? In order to capture the feelings, or thoughts, you would have to use the other notes, naturally, which in sonata form, would be expanding on the original theme, which I do know is a mixture of notes- just depends on the feeling or thought the composer wanted. I do not understand the part about secondary tonality, although I imagine that the music would, or could, sound like it is in the key of the Dominant- which apparently when it does this it is utilizing the secondary tonality.

It seems to me that a sonata form movement, would, as Peter said, revolve around the main theme- which is quite interesting, that the main theme plays such an important role. Now, when listening to the Eroica, I can hear the main theme and the contrasting theme being used throughout the piece, primarily the main theme, or at least mostly throughout the piece. But there are also many other things going on- different instruments playing the main theme, the same notes of the main theme being played in different articulations- I imagine that all of this is Beethoven taking the importance of the main theme, and then of course building his ideas in so many different ways. Now what are his ideas, ? I feel it but do not understand it, so to say. And so on, concerning sonata form.

Ah, I see, secondary tonality, is not only what the second or contrasting theme is usually written in, but it is also a vital necessity- the strongest "relationship" in music. One of the major differences with Beethoven is that he would substitute, the mediant or submediant for the dominant. Which would probably be very different to what had been happening? Yet he still provides the same increase in tension, interesting how that is possible.

Why would Beethoven never use the subdominant? Very interesting.

There are many other questions, that will come, particularly concerning Beethoven the so-called man of romance- which makes the naive- it seems, insist that he was a Romantic, and I will have to read on tonality and major/minor tonality- seems to be very important. Perhaps he had Romantic touches in his music at times, but all trained scholars, say that he was a classicist.

Peter, I kind of just realized how good your post was, . Not trying to flatter, but dang- pretty detailed material.

I am learning- slowly, but at least it is learning, . Leaving for trip tomorrow, will not be able to post for a few days.

Well Philip is quite right - it is impossible to explain this clearly to you and a good grounding in harmony, form and music theory are essential to understand the points fully. You said in an earlier post how they all understood it even in a youth orchestra - I'd be surprised. Many students play through their pieces without the faintest notion of style, structure or harmony! The trouble is that there are so many exceptions to the rule - rules were made to be broken and all the great composers do just that!

The Tonic key is the central or home key where the music begins and ends its journey. You are right to suppose in the key of C that G is the dominant (5th).

[Preston]

Well Philip is quite right - it is impossible to explain this clearly to you and a good grounding in harmony, form and music theory are essential to understand the points fully. You said in an earlier post how they all understood it even in a youth orchestra - I'd be surprised. Many students play through their pieces without the faintest notion of style, structure or harmony! The trouble is that there are so many exceptions to the rule - rules were made to be broken and all the great composers do just that!

The Tonic key is the central or home key where the music begins and ends its journey. You are right to suppose in the key of C that G is the dominant (5th).

Well back from the boondocks, which were great, and now at a hotel. Tomorrow I will be hearing Beethoven's 9th performed live! This will be the first time I have heard the 9th live, and perhaps the only time for quite a while.

Yes, Philip is absolutely right. I was not saying that I understood, so to say. I think I got ahead of myself when I said that youth's understood theory well. Perhaps some- but I do imagine that it is a life long study for many people, even including composers.

I almost can hear some type of a relationship between the tonic and dominant. They work well together, it would seem.

Hopefully, I will get, at least, started.

[Peter]

Well back from the boondocks, which were great, and now at a hotel. Tomorrow I will be hearing Beethoven's 9th performed live! This will be the first time I have heard the 9th live, and perhaps the only time for quite a while.

Yes, Philip is absolutely right. I was not saying that I understood, so to say. I think I got ahead of myself when I said that youth's understood theory well. Perhaps some- but I do imagine that it is a life long study for many people, even including composers.

I almost can hear some type of a relationship between the tonic and dominant. They work well together, it would seem.

Hopefully, I will get, at least, started.

You will get there Preston because you have the desire to learn. Hearing the tonic dominant relationship shows you are already making good progress and don't be put off from asking any questions! Do you have a keyboard or piano so you can experiment with these sounds?

[Preston]

Tell thank you Peter. Yes, I have a piano, and a keyboard. The keyboard is connected to the computer where I have a Steinway sampled for Gigastudio. I also have Garritan Orchestral Strings for Gigastudio, woodwinds, classical guitar, orchestral percussion instruments, etc. I am planning on getting a set of brass from the Sam Project. These things get pricey though.

As you probably can tell, I do hold a very deep respect for the orchestra. I will not be worried to ask questions, thanks for mentioning that, .

Now to get ready for the 9th! It has been a great trip, and not to expensive.