Beethoven meeting Mozart

[SR]

I am a lifetime Beethoven fan and recently have been studying Mozart. A few Mozartian scholars suggest that Beethoven met Mozart in Vienna and was intending to study with him. Beethoven however left Vienna in two weeks due to illness of his mother. By the time he returned Mozart was dead. There is no bona fide documentation I have found in Mozart letters that would indicate such a meeting, but at the time Beethoven was a kid
and the meeting would have no significance to Mozart. But it would have been important to Beethoven,as Mozart was a famous musician. If they had met I feel it would be documented by Beethoven as an important event in his young life. Is there any such bona fide documentation in Beethovens documents ?

What a great opportunity was missed by the early death of Mozart. Can you imagine the heights that both men would have been driven to if Mozart and Beethoven had competed for "top dog" honors in Vienna for 20 years ?


Steve

[Peter]

I think the famous meeting and improvisation story (depicted on the rare Beethoven pages of this site at the moment) comes from Carl Holz - a friend of Beethoven in his later years. The timing of this visit was not good for either men - Mozart's father had just died and he was busy with work on Don Giovani. In letters of the time, neither make any mention of the other!

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'Man know thyself'

[oboe_15]

I also, have no "bona fide" information and proof that the two met, however, in my text books at School, it mentions a quote that Mozart had said while meeting the young Beethoven, It was "Look at this, he will make people talk about him for years to come" or words to that effect, I will look up the exact quote and if it differs from what I have said than I will post it. I am pretty sure that the text book would have all of it's information correct. Also, Beethoven walked into the hall to meet Mozart and it is said that he felt uncomftorble at the start due to his appearance, (being shabby at the time) and that Mozart was a bit scepticle about listening to him.

Beethoven Rocks _ I should just make that a signiature and get it over and done with!

oboe_15

[This message has been edited by oboe_15 (edited 07-23-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think the famous meeting and improvisation story (depicted on the rare Beethoven pages of this site at the moment) comes from Carl Holz - a friend of Beethoven in his later years. The timing of this visit was not good for either men - Mozart's father had just died and he was busy with work on Don Giovani. In letters of the time, neither make any mention of the other!

I think the story comes for more than just Holz, I can check into it. Beethoven himself described Mozarts piano playing style - what must this imply!?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I think the story comes for more than just Holz, I can check into it. Beethoven himself described Mozarts piano playing style - what must this imply!?

I'm certain he did hear Mozart play either in person or at a concert, but that does not mean that B played for Mozart - that is the story that comes from Holz and I suspect it is actually true.

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'Man know thyself'

[SR]

Hi Peter (and others)

I found the story by Karl Holz. He was a friend of Beethovens apparently not born until a decade after the supposed meeting would have occured. I wonder how reliable are his stories ? Is there any evidence to validate this story or is there evidence that coraberates other stories he's told ?
In short is he a reliable witness ?

I ask because I have found many Mozart "facts" to be pure fabrication by those wanting to discredit him, or even build him up. I imagine the same problem holds true for many Beethoven stories.

My tendency on the subject of the meeting would be to only believe it if it appeared in one of Beethovens letters written shortly after. This is further complicated though by the fact that Ludwig returned home to mother right after the meeting would have taken place, in which case he may have never written choosing to pass the story on verbally.

By the way this is a very nice site thanks for hosting it.

Regards

Steve

[MCS]

Originally posted by SR:

....
My tendency on the subject of the meeting would be to only believe it if it appeared in one of Beethovens letters written shortly after.....

SR,
Don't you think it possible that he may have written about it but that the letter has not survived?

Mary

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SR:
Hi Peter (and others)

I found the story by Karl Holz. He was a friend of Beethovens apparently not born until a decade after the supposed meeting would have occured. I wonder how reliable are his stories ? Is there any evidence to validate this story or is there evidence that coraberates other stories he's told ?
In short is he a reliable witness ?

Well Schindler didn't think so, but that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black, as well as a touch of jealousy! Holz only really knew Beethoven in the composer's last few years, but in that time they formed a close friendship - his recollections of Beethoven are thought to be generally reliable.

I ask because I have found many Mozart "facts" to be pure fabrication by those wanting to discredit him, or even build him up. I imagine the same problem holds true for many Beethoven stories.

I think we are fortunate with Beethoven in having such a wealth of information, most which can be corroberated. Holz would have had no need to build B's reputation up! I think his story is probably true. The fact that he mentions that it was Beethoven's improvisation that impressed Mozart adds an air of authenticity.

My tendency on the subject of the meeting would be to only believe it if it appeared in one of Beethovens letters written shortly after. This is further complicated though by the fact that Ludwig returned home to mother right after the meeting would have taken place, in which case he may have never written choosing to pass the story on verbally.

It seems to me on balance that during the few weeks Beethoven was in Vienna he would have met Mozart - after all, this was the whole purpose of his visit! Beethoven claims to have heard Mozart play, but this may have been privately or in public.

By the way this is a very nice site thanks for hosting it.

Thank you - it is nice to receive some praise for a change!




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'Man know thyself'

[SR]

Originally posted by MCS:
SR,
Don't you think it possible that he may have written about it but that the letter has not survived?

Mary

Most certainly possible. We are very lucky to have not just the musical legacy but also alot of the day to day life available because of the letters. It's just frustrating when you come to the places where you are forced to believe or disbelieve a story by someone who wasn't even there anyway. You see it's very easy for me to see Ludwig and Carl Holz BS'ing there way though another stein of ale, where Ludwig says "Mozart, sure I met Mozart when I was a kid. I played for him and he was real impressed." I can also imagine Holz years down the road confronted by a romantic idealist wondering if his old friend had ever met Mozart. Not wanting to spoil a good myth about the great geniuses meeting Holz says "Sure they met, they played for each other, Beethoven told me so."

If we had it in writing at the time of the event it would be wonderful, but we apparently don't.


Steve

[MCS]

I understand your point, Steve, and agree. However, as Peter noted, the whole purpose of Beethoven's trip was to meet Mozart, so it certainly isn't very far-fetched to believe that he did so. Also, his reason for wanting to meet him (I think) was to take lessons from him. Don't you think that Mozart would want to hear him play before deciding whether or not to teach him? And, if Beethoven DID play, isn't it reasonable to assume that M would have been impressed, as LvB was already impressing others by that time?
Have I convinced you yet?

Mary

[Claudie MICAULT]

Mary,

If you did not convinced Steve, you convinced me anyway !

Claudie

[MCS]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
Mary,

If you did not convinced Steve, you convinced me anyway !

Claudie