Beethoven's tempi

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joy:

When I say I like the 'slower version' I'm merely talking about comparisons I make concerning other recordings I have heard. I am not a musician so I wouldn't know what actual allegro vivace should sound like compared to vivace in general (if I'm making that clear)? I can only go with what sounds good to me. Other versions I have heard they seemed to slow it down a bit and these versions sounded better to my ear.

Quite right Joy - Allegro literally means fast and Vivace means lively, so by putting the two together B was indicating a tempo faster than the normal Allegro - however he did not add the qualifying mark which you see in some Romantic music 'as fast as possible' - so it is possible obviously to play too fast!


I don't take offense that easily. Joy

Thank goodness Joy, an essential quality on this forum or indeed any other!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Thank goodness Joy, an essential quality on this forum or indeed any other!

Mmm.. we'll see... for the record the performances in which Clara Schumann gets critisised for playing too fast in Schindler's book is between 1854-59!!! Can't say..no...more....as.....I'm.......running........ ...away..............ha ha!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Mmm.. we'll see... for the record the performances in which Clara Schumann gets critisised for playing too fast in Schindler's book is between 1854-59!!! Can't say..no...more....as.....I'm.......running........ ...away..............ha ha!!

And most of the time you complain about performances that are too slow!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
And most of the time you complain about performances that are too slow!

(shouting from afar)....just as fast as the score dictates, not too slow, not too fast....like Clara.........running.....away......again...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Claudie MICAULT]

Clara SCHUMANN was not the only to defend Beethoven's music : LISZT was always playing B. in his recitals (and set the symphonies for piano which gave to a large public of good amateurs to play it for themselves) and later HALLE had the whole sonatas in his répertoire.

At the beginning of her career Clara had had no success in Paris because she had NO Beethoven sonata in répertoire. Robert Schumann convinced her to Beethoven.

Claudie

[Harvey]

Speaking of tempo, I recently heard the 8th Symphony performed by The Chicago Symphony Orchestra and it was the fastest version I had ever heard! Especially the Allegro vivace. I mean they were flying!! I wonder why some orchestras play so different than others, either faster or slower!?! I imagine it has a lot to do with the conductor's interpretation but this was really too fast. I prefer the slower version.

Joy

This has recently interested me (and it's only been 13 years since you posted ). I found an old, but fascintaing article that has graphs of duration and tempo for various works and composers, including a number of graphs for Beethoven.
Tempo, Duration, and Flexibility: Techniques in the Analysis of Performance

[dahc]

The metronomes and ways of timing in Beethoven's time may have had some faults. today our digital one drive me crazy.
it seems to me that Beethoven music was very emphatic about what it/he was saying. He was always trying to make a profound point. It is a drama to be interpreted by the performer through the dynamic markings and punctuation within the body of each work. of course the careful study of the score reveals areas were there can be differences of opinion on performance. But it's generally pretty clear.
A few clicks of tempo difference doesn't matter much as long as I feel Beethoven's point has been made. there are the performers that are only out there to get attention by pushing the envelope
Digital metronomes work best if you strike forcefully them with a tuning pin wrench.

[hal9000]

"My tempi are valid only for the first bars, as feeling and expression must have their own tempo"

"Why do they annoy me by asking for my tempi? Either they are good musicians and ought to know how to play my music, or they are bad musicians and in that case my indications would be of no avail"

[Sorrano]

"Why do they annoy me by asking for my tempi? Either they are good musicians and ought to know how to play my music, or they are bad musicians and in that case my indications would be of no avail"

Touche!

[AeolianHarp]

"My tempi are valid only for the first bars, as feeling and expression must have their own tempo"

"Why do they annoy me by asking for my tempi? Either they are good musicians and ought to know how to play my music, or they are bad musicians and in that case my indications would be of no avail"

LOL! I know this quote- Beethoven could be very direct!

Regarding digital metronomes- I have yet to try practising with the metronome (inbuilt) in my Privia piano.

[Albert Gans]

My music teacher used to say, tempo's are relative. In pieces with several movements, it is important to make sure that the balance between them is important. I have a very slow 5th with Klemperer and a fast one with Carlos Kleiber. Both are wonderfully done and the strength lies in the overall vision these conductors have for the piece.
Conductors therefore will always have a major impact on these works. Of course, it makes no sense to ignore the indications of B, but they are, in the end, letters on a piece of paper, just like the notes are. We all know how different the same note can sound, depending on the interpreter. What is p or pp? One's p can be another's pp.
Before anyone says that I seem to think anything is allowed, no, I don't think so. But there is always room for interpretation, and part of the fun of listening to this music of our beloved B is that one can find different things in the music is that the music has to be interpreted. It is, by the way, an interesting word in this context. One of its meanings, after all, is 'translation'.