Stop,Repair,Prepare

[Peter]

In your view (though I agree Janders is certainly of interest). I did not launch this thread, and I was "invited" to step forward. I have fulfilled my side of the bargain. Why are you complaining so?

Your ego assumed correctly that the invitation was for yourself! The point is that the topic itself is not of huge interest to a Beethoven forum - it was of passing comment and I rather amused myself seeing if you'd rise to the bait. So yes in my view discussing Beethoven's music is of more relevance and I hope you will develop the theme of programme music in Beethoven further, but please in a new thread!

[Quijote]

My ego indeed! But yes, I knew that you knew I would rise to the bait (which is why I mentioned red rags to a bull, rotting morsels for a shark etc). My children often ask me "Papa, play with us!", and so I like to indulge them where I can, likewise with you and Michael.
There are still a couple of points outstanding which I shall address later. Go back and stand in the corner, and no supper for you tonight.

[Peter]

My ego indeed! But yes, I knew that you knew I would rise to the bait (which is why I mentioned red rags to a bull, rotting morsels for a shark etc). My children often ask me "Papa, play with us!", and so I like to indulge them where I can, likewise with you and Michael.
There are still a couple of points outstanding which I shall address later. Go back and stand in the corner, and no supper for you tonight.

You're forgetting your talking to the headmaster here! Yes I knew you would respond for the reasons mentioned in an earlier thread where I said you wouldn't have done so had we been criticising an 18th or 19th century work -not to suggest you're predictable of course. Really I don't see what more there is to say about this topic, certainly not as far as I'm concerned but you are of course free to wax lyrical and do what you like with your 'cello - my 1929 Bechstein has not been scheduled for any adaptions!

[Quijote]

You're forgetting your talking to the headmaster here! Yes I knew you would respond for the reasons mentioned in an earlier thread where I said you wouldn't have done so had we been criticising an 18th or 19th century work -not to suggest you're predictable of course. Really I don't see what more there is to say about this topic, certainly not as far as I'm concerned but you are of course free to wax lyrical and do what you like with your 'cello - my 1929 Bechstein has not been scheduled for any adaptions!

Headmaster are you? I must warn you, then, that I have a job interview next week for the post of Minister for Education. No, really, honest I do ...

You don't see what more there is to say about this topic. There is of course Churnel's response to come (we hope), which should address your specific Beethoven-related query, namely : "what is the great political and social significance it has for you and why this is lacking in Beethoven's 9th symphony and needs this further illumination." It seems probable I will have to take up the relay. More later.

So, I shall continue to wax, whilst you wane.

[Quijote]

There has been no response, so I shall continue waxing.

Peter, your question is slightly disingenuous as nowhere in Churnel’s comment is there a suggestion of anything lacking in Beethoven’s Ninth, and this was not his point at all. I think he was being over enthusiastic, but I agree with him to the extent that Stop, Repair, Prepare (hereafter ‘SRP’ for economy) does indeed have (a certain) political and social significance.

The understanding of the political issues involved in appropriating the “Ode” theme (supremacist Rhodesia, the Nazis, film director Kubrick, etc) are not as widespread as you think, though I would of course expect this on your forum. In a world you have described as having little but antipathy to classical music (falling CD sales, rap fans preferring to pay fines rather than listen to it…) I would have thought you would welcome such a work as SRP. What SRP points up (and this is where part of its political and social interest resides) is how a melody and its associated ideas (via the text of course) can soon begin to outgrow its original context. This in itself is interesting enough. The artists involved in SRP are not trying to outdo the Ninth, and are not claiming their work as a concert piece in any shape of form, so there is no attempt at further illumination.

Perhaps the techniques and materials of SRP are blatantly simplistic (i.e. cut a hole in a Bechstein, place a musician in it etc), but their “message” I feel is not so obvious, and also not purely political. We must not forget that the artists call themselves conceptual artists and I do believe that there is a certain kind of artistry at work : humorous references to Cage with the customised Bechstein (the Cagean “prepared piano”) and questions about what constitutes an art work, the sculptural aspect (a moving piano, no less), the performance element, the show element, the circus of it all. For all I know there are probably a whole host of other cultural references and sub-texts that I have failed to detect, but that is my problem.

So, a clever and humorous little work it seems, one that functions on various levels, though not particularly groundbreaking.

Apologies to Churnel. And Herr Bechstein.

[Peter]

There has been no response, so I shall continue waxing.

Peter, your question is slightly disingenuous as nowhere in Churnel’s comment is there a suggestion of anything lacking in Beethoven’s Ninth, and this was not his point at all. I think he was being over enthusiastic, but I agree with him to the extent that Stop, Repair, Prepare (hereafter ‘SRP’ for economy) does indeed have (a certain) political and social significance.

The understanding of the political issues involved in appropriating the “Ode” theme (supremacist Rhodesia, the Nazis, film director Kubrick, etc) are not as widespread as you think, though I would of course expect this on your forum. In a world you have described as having little but antipathy to classical music (falling CD sales, rap fans preferring to pay fines rather than listen to it…) I would have thought you would welcome such a work as SRP. What SRP points up (and this is where part of its political and social interest resides) is how a melody and its associated ideas (via the text of course) can soon begin to outgrow its original context. This in itself is interesting enough. The artists involved in SRP are not trying to outdo the Ninth, and are not claiming their work as a concert piece in any shape of form, so there is no attempt at further illumination.

Perhaps the techniques and materials of SRP are blatantly simplistic (i.e. cut a hole in a Bechstein, place a musician in it etc), but their “message” I feel is not so obvious, and also not purely political. We must not forget that the artists call themselves conceptual artists and I do believe that there is a certain kind of artistry at work : humorous references to Cage with the customised Bechstein (the Cagean “prepared piano”) and questions about what constitutes an art work, the sculptural aspect (a moving piano, no less), the performance element, the show element, the circus of it all. For all I know there are probably a whole host of other cultural references and sub-texts that I have failed to detect, but that is my problem.

So, a clever and humorous little work it seems, one that functions on various levels, though not particularly groundbreaking.

Apologies to Churnel. And Herr Bechstein.

I thought you might be brewing up something a little stronger than that. Of course the issue of the political use of the ode is not widely known as only a small minority are interested in classical music anyhow, and a smaller percentage of those who know the historical background or even care about it. But do you really think that whatever the merits of this conceptual piece, it has a bigger audience and therefore is of relevance in pointing out these issues? In any case it would only be of significance to those who were aware or cared about the 9th and its context in the first place.

If we take the wider context of abuse of music then nothing could be more graphic than the image of people forced to play as people marched to their deaths in the concentration camps - I suspect most intelligent people are aware of that and are not in need of a simplistic hole cut out of a piano to make them think what they already know.

Allow me to translate your sentence "For all I know there are probably a whole host of other cultural references and sub-texts that I have failed to detect, but that is my problem" = there are probably a whole host of other cultural references and sub-texts that you have failed to read into it yet, but given time no doubt will.

I am now going for my morning walk round in circles which has infinite interpretations.

[Quijote]

Allow me to translate your sentence "For all I know there are probably a whole host of other cultural references and sub-texts that I have failed to detect, but that is my problem" = there are probably a whole host of other cultural references and sub-texts that you have failed to read into it yet, but given time no doubt will.

No doubt in time I could well find other cultural references and sub-texts. Where is the problem in that? Art forms generally speaking require us to experience them many times. This often happens when I listen to music. I do not claim to have a full understanding after only one or two hearings. Do you?

Don't get too dizzy walking around in circles, you might fall into your Bechstein.

[Peter]

No doubt in time I could well find other cultural references and sub-texts. Where is the problem in that? Art forms generally speaking require us to experience them many times. This often happens when I listen to music. I do not claim to have a full understanding after only one or two hearings. Do you?

Indeed but sometimes it isn't worth the effort and I suspect this is one of those cases - I mean do you really spend hours puzzling over chopsticks? Perhaps Tolstoy was right after all about the pointlessness of art! However if you find hidden depths of meaning please feel free to reveal all (in a manner of speaking!).

Don't get too dizzy walking around in circles, you might fall into your Bechstein

Ah now you have revealed a dimension to my ritual that has significance - the artist colliding with his means of self expression probably delves into areas we shouldn't go in this forum!

[Quijote]

Indeed but sometimes it isn't worth the effort and I suspect this is one of those cases - I mean do you really spend hours puzzling over chopsticks?

I have already said that I found SRP mildly interesting and slightly thought-provoking. The effort was minimal (on my part). I don't think you need me to reply to your "chopsticks" non sequitur.

Ah now you have revealed a dimension to my ritual that has significance - the artist colliding with his means of self expression probably delves into areas we shouldn't go in this forum!

Perhaps we could see your dizzy fall as "performance art", with the following title : "Revenge of the Bechstein", or something like that. I'll leave you to ponder a more suitable title ...

Add icon.

[Peter]

I have already said that I found SRP mildly interesting and slightly thought-provoking. The effort was minimal (on my part). I don't think you need me to reply to your "chopsticks" non sequitur.

I see nothing non sequitur about my remark - indeed it is perfectly relevant in the context of this thread and was hoping you might have had some profound thoughts on the art-work chopsticks that has inspired generations of young musicians.

[Quijote]

Many know that B's Ode to Joy theme carries considerable cultural baggage, but could you offer us your insights (for once) on "Chopsticks"? I ask this as you seem to attach great importance to it.

[Peter]

Many know that B's Ode to Joy theme carries considerable cultural baggage, but could you offer us your insights (for once) on "Chopsticks"? I ask this as you seem to attach great importance to it.

To me it is a very simple little piece of some charm for younger players - I thought with your capacity to see hidden depths you might have more to say. However I'd rather we moved on to the Beethoven programmatic issue raised earlier in the thread, but I sense a desire to discuss anything but Beethoven.

[Quijote]

To me it is a very simple little piece of some charm for younger players - I thought with your capacity to see hidden depths you might have more to say.

Sarcasm is a useful tool in language, when used with discrimination. Your use of it above is unfair I feel, especially as I have tried to keep the discussion objective and measured.

[Peter]

Sarcasm is a useful tool in language, when used with discrimination. Your use of it above is unfair I feel, especially as I have tried to keep the discussion objective and measured.

Apologies if it was taken that way - an icon or two should have been added.

I was genuine in my question about chopsticks, but I'm breaking the rules and being extremely hypocritical so let's get back to Beethoven who features on BBC radio 3 composer of the week - today they played 3 little known late piano pieces lasting only around 40 seconds each, but delightful

[Quijote]

Apologies if it was taken that way - an icon or two should have been added.

I was genuine in my question about chopsticks, but I'm breaking the rules and being extremely hypocritical so let's get back to Beethoven who features on BBC radio 3 composer of the week - today they played 3 little known late piano pieces lasting only around 40 seconds each, but delightful

"Works" lasting 40 seconds? Webern, surely?