Stop,Repair,Prepare

[Quijote]

I really don't care what the thing claims to be about, I don't need a piano with a hole in it to think about political, social issues in relation to art but some people I accept have obviously been greatly enlightened by it. Perhaps we should be asking different questions - is it ok to vandalise a 1920's Bechstein when the 1920s just happened to be the finest era of piano production for German pianos? Are the issues raised by this really new or is this not just sensationalism posing as art?

I am amazed by the bathos in this comment. To reject the claims of artists (whatever their merit) attempting to point up social, political and artistic correlations, and then bemoan the demise of an object such as a Bechstein borders on the hilarious. That said, asking whether such issues are new or just sensationalist demonstrates a deeper sensitivity.

Such sensitivity demands a fair answer (as far as I am able to) : the issues are not new to me, Peter. I think, though, that a lot of people are not aware of how B's "Ode" has been (mis)appropriated/abused (e.g. Ian Smith/Rhodesia, the Nazis, The EU ...), and so the work is a useful reminder, I feel. I don't find the work sensationalist at all (unlike the "Myra Hindley" work mentioned elsewhere, though I still defend the artist's integrity in producing it. Another time, another place, I know!).

[PDG]

Oh dear, Maurice, have you been reading your old Reader's Digest copy of "How to Argue Effectively" again? Or perhaps a copy of that renowned publication going under the title of "The Bar Room Philosopher's Guide to Rhetoric, Oratory and Other Techniques"? Your use of hackneyed stock phrases exposes you in a merciless light, I fear. My immaturity? My dear boy, try and be more rigorous in the application of that "natural intelligence" you trumpet. I do believe you are trying to play me at one-upmanship, which is most tiresome.

A quite brilliant repost, Philip. You would seem to have everyone against you. A shame that and I'm afraid I side with the majority. However, I do feel you are being bashed about somewhat, a bit like a feisty mouse in the hands of a smug cat...

[Quijote]

The trouble is that throughout its history the 9th has been abused for political ends - everyone seeing different things in it to suit their own ends and ignoring the somewhat idealistic and utopian message Beethoven and Schiller intended. To me that issue is of far more importance as well as relevance to this forum.

I think we forget that Beethoven's setting of Schiller's text was a political act. Schiller may have intended his words to be interpreted as utopian and idealistic, but this falls firmly into the scope of politics. That the censor at the time wielded their (blue? red?) pens with abandon surely demonstrates the radical (for its time) nature of the words. But that is also the point of Stop, Repair, Prepare, is it not? That the "Ode" is not frozen in time, frozen to its original (highly political) context, but is something fluid, something that can change (rather, does change). I feel that aspect is embodied in the fact that the performer (in Stop, Repair, Prepare) moves around, is not frozen in the normally accepted idea of "performer fixed on the stage, not moving around).

The work also makes me think about other things : you mentioned the Bechstein, and this made me think about things German in general : the brand of the piano you mention, Beethoven, German music, German culture, even Debussy's reference to the "Juggernaut of German music", and juggernauts are heavy cumbersome objects that move, are they not?

So, I think Stop, Repair, Prepare is finally rather clever and interesting, because it works on multiple levels. That said, only I have made the connection with Cage (as in his famous works for "prepared piano", where he inserts various objects into the strings to change their attack, timbre, duration etc) ! The Debussy connection is also an original comment of mine.

But this is what good art does : it makes you think, reflect.

[Quijote]

A quite brilliant repost, Philip. You would seem to have everyone against you. A shame that and I'm afraid I side with the majority. However, I do feel you are being bashed about somewhat, a bit like a feisty mouse in the hands of a smug cat...

Thank you PDG ! But don't worry, this is all water off a duck's back. I wonder what it is with all these animal references (sharks, bulls, cats, mice and ducks) ?
Anyway, let's get back to Beethoven and contemporary art. First, a little secret : some is utter rubbish. When I see it, I'll tell you, promise !!

PS : Don't forget that I, like you, adore Beethoven. Seems I have to keep making this point.

Churnel : Where were you? Still time to continue this thread, would be a shame to let it drop now.

[Quijote]

Finally the fatigue has got the better of me. Until tomorrow, gentlemen.

[Peter]

Finally the fatigue has got the better of me. Until tomorrow, gentlemen.

I'm not surprised after all that! It makes us think you say that 'the ode is not frozen in its original political context'. Well doesn't this apply equally to any text? What about the Matthew Passion for example or the Marriage of Figaro?
Apparently it was I who inspired you with ideas about German culture rather than the work itself! "you mentioned the Bechstein, and this made me think about things German in general" - then you read this into the work as an example of its multi-faceted levels!

To be fair I think it perfectly fine if you are really getting something from this but I think you should be a little more discerning in your critical appraisal and less immediately accepting of any new fangled art concept that justifies itself by association.

I'm now going to drink litres and litres of water whilst floating down the Thames listening to Handel's water music in order to purify myself and connect with Aquarias. I will not be posting this on you-tube so the work unfortunately will not be commercially available.

[Michael]

I'm now going to drink litres and litres of water whilst floating down the Thames listening to Handel's water music .

I trust you will be in a boat or some similar craft, Peter?

[Quijote]

I'm not surprised after all that! It makes us think you say that 'the ode is not frozen in its original political context'. Well doesn't this apply equally to any text? What about the Matthew Passion for example or the Marriage of Figaro?

I wasn’t at all clear here, I concede (I blame a mixture of fatigue and the “ether”). What I was struggling to say was that (as far as I can tell) the artists have chosen to jettison (or rather, sidetrack) the original Enlightenment aspects of the text in favour of pointing up the various connotations and (mis)appropriations (yes, maybe even ‘abuses’) that the “Ode” theme has engendered since its composition.

Apparently it was I who inspired you with ideas about German culture rather than the work itself! "you mentioned the Bechstein, and this made me think about things German in general" - then you read this into the work as an example of its multi-faceted levels!

Yes, you did inspire me and it was perceptive (if unintentional) of you, and I don’t see the problem in that. The same happens with music : when somebody makes an insightful comment I integrate it in my general appreciation of the work. An example? Beethoven’s Piano Concerto n° 4 (second movement). I used to hear this movement ‘formally’ (as a masterly chaining or ‘arching’ of extended diminished sevenths). I still do, but my appreciation of it has been considerably enhanced by comments made by Owen Janders to the effect that it may be one of B’s most programmatic pieces, representing the harp of Orpheus. Good art allows us the freedom to make correlations of our own. In this respect, I do consider Stop, Repair, Prepare to be most effective.

To be fair I think it perfectly fine if you are really getting something from this but I think you should be a little more discerning in your critical appraisal and less immediately accepting of any new fangled art concept that justifies itself by association.

Yes, I do get “something” from Stop, Repair, Prepare. Let me be clear : I am not saying it is the greatest work since prehistoric man first started daubing cave walls, but I think it is humorous, mildly challenging, and certainly offers up enough “conceptual material” to make me stop and think, however briefly. Do not concern yourself with my discernment in critical appraisal, it is far more nuanced (a neologism) than you give me credit for.

I would also like to address the point you made to Churnel specifically, but prefer to wait until he (she?) replies. But again, I will take it up after a while if there is no response.

[Peter]

An example? Beethoven’s Piano Concerto n° 4 (second movement). I used to hear this movement ‘formally’ (as a masterly chaining or ‘arching’ of extended diminished sevenths). I still do, but my appreciation of it has been considerably enhanced by comments made by Owen Janders to the effect that it may be one of B’s most programmatic pieces, representing the harp of Orpheus.

At last this thread has produced something really worth discussing. Owen Janders of course didn't come up with this idea of Orpheus but rather clarified the situation regarding the misattribution by Tovey of this suggestion to Liszt. It had been around however from at least the 1860s and I think it certainly plausible. There are of course other examples in Beethoven such as the tomb scene from Romeo and Juliet in Op.18/1 2nd movement. If anyone wishes to take this topic further I suggest a new thread to free ourselves more a minefield of misconceptualisations - have I just invented a new word??

[Quijote]

At last this thread has produced something really worth discussing.

In your view (though I agree Janders is certainly of interest). I did not launch this thread, and I was "invited" to step forward. I have fulfilled my side of the bargain. Why are you complaining so?

[PDG]

...misconceptualisations - have I just invented a new word??

It's worth 200,000 points in Scrabble...

[Quijote]

- have I just invented a new word??

I have already given you the term you are seeking : "neogolism". Pay attention in future, or else I shall be obliged to give you six-of-the-best. Now go and stand in the corner.

[PDG]

...the corner.

Now, I might know nothing about modern art an' all, but I do know that Corners are very special things in the world of angles - every angle has a corner, and every corner has an angle. What would the world be like without Corners? A serious question to ponder...

[Joy]

uh, round?

[Peter]

I have already given you the term you are seeking : "neogolism". Pay attention in future, or else I shall be obliged to give you six-of-the-best. Now go and stand in the corner.

I wouldn't want to be accused of plagiarism.