The First Symphony

[Marek Krukowski]

I think the First Symphony is a real masterpiece. But it is in some way diffrent than all other. I mean different than not only other Beethoven symphonies but different from all other symphonies. From the very first steps it lead us straight to Elysium and show us all its miracles. Beethoven did not use to make music in this way in other compositions. I suppose the most similiar world of thoughts we can find in the Final of the Last Quartet. But there before hilarious "Es muss sein" we hear this dramatic "Muss es sein?". And this is his normal way of showing us Perennial World of Ideas. Probably in his First Symphony he tried to create something absolutely special. Music absolutely perfect. I suppose it is a reason why this symphony is almost always underrated. People think it is simple and Haydnesque or Mozartesque. In fact it is neither Haydnesque nor Mozartesque. It is less like that than all other his symphonies. But of course I do not think it is better than the Second. It is just other.

[Peter]

I think the First Symphony is a real masterpiece. But it is in some way diffrent than all other. I mean different than not only other Beethoven symphonies but different from all other symphonies. From the very first steps it lead us straight to Elysium and show us all its miracles. Beethoven did not use to make music in this way in other compositions. I suppose the most similiar world of thoughts we can find in the Final of the Last Quartet. But there before hilarious "Es muss sein" we hear this dramatic "Muss es sein?". And this is his normal way of showing us Perennial World of Ideas. Probably in his First Symphony he tried to create something absolutely special. Music absolutely perfect. I suppose it is a reason why this symphony is almost always underrated. People think it is simple and Haydnesque or Mozartesque. In fact it is neither Haydnesque nor Mozartesque. It is less like that than all other his symphonies. But of course I do not think it is better than the Second. It is just other.

Extremely well put Marek. I think the thing about the Beethoven symphonies is just how different they are from each other (and all other symphonies). With Haydn and Mozart you do get this as well but not so consistently - of course they wrote a greater number of symphonies but it's hard to imagine Beethoven ever sounding 'the same'.

[PDG]

Beethoven opens on the subdominant and then messes with your brain and doesn’t state C major until the allegro begins – twelve bars and you are already floundering. After all this, he can afford the plain material that follows because he has focused your mind on the harmonic architecture; this guy has a different agenda, folks. You are caught up in the momentum which is the essence of sonata form and nobody knew how better to generate it

I may as well admit that I am indulging in a bit of sophistry when I describe the themes as “plain”. They have the sense of inevitability and strength which will reveal itself long after the wish for a ravishing tune has gone.

Brilliant post, Michael. Spot on. Actually, I feel that much of Beethoven's initial thematic material is 'plain' but the reward for us is that because of his complete and utter mastery of his art, all will be revealed in the end. Even on repeated listens, I wonder, "he can't really justify this or that", but of course, he does, every time. What incredible confidence the young genius exudes in his early Vienna works!

I am a huge admirer of Schubert but the problem with being a great melodist is that when writing sonata-form, your greatest musical stabs are exhausted early with nowhere else really to run to with the same level of inventiveness. Even more magically, with Beethoven, there always seems to be a sense that he knows exactly what he is doing all along. Our role as listeners is merely to try and keep up with his ultimate purpose.

In the First Symphony, the unbelievably 'plain' Andante has such incredible beauty. I'm listening to No.1 now - seems even more magnificent after reading your post, thanks!

[PDG]

Talking of 'Firsts' I have been listening more and more to LVB's no 1 Piano Concerto. I always used to go straight for the later concerti as, as a non musical reading punter, I assumed them to be more ‘masterful’ which in fact they may well be, but I have to say that the slow movement of number 1 is simply one of the most beautiful pieces of music I have ever heard

Hi Tony. I think you refer to Op.15 (written second but numbered first)? I first heard this on a musicassette for which the shop had lost the case, and had only labelled as 'Beethoven'. I bought it for 5p, took it home, played what was for me an unknown work, and immediately fell in love with it. Within a day, I'd worked out what the piece was. This fateful happening, along with a scratchy LP of the Pastoral Symphony, and another platter featuring the variations, Op.34 and 35, turned me onto LvB 20 years ago, and I've been hooked ever since.

[PDG]

Extremely well put Marek. I think the thing about the Beethoven symphonies is just how different they are from each other (and all other symphonies). With Haydn and Mozart you do get this as well but not so consistently - of course they wrote a greater number of symphonies but it's hard to imagine Beethoven ever sounding 'the same'.

I think Beethoven's world is different. He wrote what he wanted, when he wanted. He pleased himself. I have not heard all the Haydn symphonies but it seems as though both he and Mozart (mainly due to the constraints on their employment and/or finances) wrote a lot of symphonic 'programme music'.

Among the Beethoven symphonies, I don't detect a single ounce of flabbiness anywhere.

[Michael]

I am a huge admirer of Schubert but the problem with being a great melodist is that when writing sonata-form, your greatest musical stabs are exhausted early with nowhere else really to run to with the same level of inventiveness. Even more magically, with Beethoven, there always seems to be a sense that he knows exactly what he is doing all along. Our role as listeners is merely to try and keep up with his ultimate purpose.

In the First Symphony, the unbelievably 'plain' Andante has such incredible beauty.

Peter, you may have put your finger on the cause of my problem with Schubert. Arguably Schubert was the greatest melodist of them all and if I had discovered him (or Mozart) first, I might never have bothered with Beethoven because I love a good tune! I'm not saying our boy couldn't write a good tune when he wanted to but I think he was after a different sort of beauty (and I don't mean Antonie Brentano or whatever her name was.) To take just one example, when I first heard the "Trout" tune in the Schubert quintet, I thought it was a fantastic melody but now I have to confess I am rather tired of it - (I know: a horrible confession) - whereas the Beethoven First Symphony andante that you mentioned above has grown in my estimation over the years.
I think it was one of the members of the Tokyo Quartet who asked the question about one of the tunes in the first Razumovksy quartet: "Why is this tune so beautiful?" I think what he meant was that it was not merely catchy or even terribly melodic - it was just sublime. And that's the great mystery about Beethoven: how did he know those simple phrases would move us so much. Leonard Bernstein put it like this: "Beethoven alone knew exactly what the next note had to be" which is some kind of an answer, I suppose.
Anyway, it all boils down to what you said above: Beethoven knew exactly what he was doing.

[Peter]

And that's the great mystery about Beethoven: how did he know those simple phrases would move us so much. Leonard Bernstein put it like this: "Beethoven alone knew exactly what the next note had to be" which is some kind of an answer, I suppose.
Anyway, it all boils down to what you said above: Beethoven knew exactly what he was doing.

And that boils down to the fact that he was the greatest master of form/structure. Schubert is a special case because he was on the cusp of the new Romantic generation that was searching for a different voice - now I love his music, but I admit there are problems with his structures because of the melodic issue - he can simply ramble on too much (a bit like me some may say!). However we have to remember he was only 31 at his death and he had come a long way even since he was 25 and I think he was solving these issues towards the end of his life.

[Peter]

I think Beethoven's world is different. He wrote what he wanted, when he wanted. He pleased himself. I have not heard all the Haydn symphonies but it seems as though both he and Mozart (mainly due to the constraints on their employment and/or finances) wrote a lot of symphonic 'programme music'.

Among the Beethoven symphonies, I don't detect a single ounce of flabbiness anywhere.

I think you're right up to a point, however there are notable exceptions especially amongst Haydn's symphonies which often show great originality. It is worthwhile getting to know the earlier Haydn symphonies for this reason - he experiments with all sorts of orchestral effects, remote keys (for the time), rhythmic devices and with the symphonic form.

[PDG]

I think it was one of the members of the Tokyo Quartet who asked the question about one of the tunes in the first Razumovksy quartet: "Why is this tune so beautiful?" I think what he meant was that it was not merely catchy or even terribly melodic - it was just sublime. And that's the great mystery about Beethoven: how did he know those simple phrases would move us so much.

Hi Michael. I believe the comment was made by Peter Cropper of the Lindsay Quartet, referring to the second movement of Op.59 no.1 - that 'bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom' cello one-note intro which initially seems to be utterly banal, but then turns into a musical miracle! A bit like the opening tread of the Allegretto of Symphony 7.

[PDG]

To take just one example, when I first heard the "Trout" tune in the Schubert quintet, I thought it was a fantastic melody but now I have to confess I am rather tired of it - .

Michael, you are a fish out of water as far as Schubert is concerned...

[Michael]

Hi Michael. I believe the comment was made by Peter Cropper of the Lindsay Quartet, referring to the second movement of Op.59 no.1 - that 'bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom' cello one-note intro which initially seems to be utterly banal, but then turns into a musical miracle! A bit like the opening tread of the Allegretto of Symphony 7.

Yes, Peter, it sounds like Peter Cropper. I thought it was Peter Oundjian of the Tokyo Quartet, but I'll be damned if I can find the reference. There are too many Peters, Peter, but I don't want this thread to peter out, so if the other Peter could help .............?

[Chris]

You mean this guy?

[PDG]

Darn it, I just knew I should have rinsed my hair after lathering, before they sculpted me...

[Maurice Colgan]

Maurice Peter C.. is standing by. :-)

[Michael]

Saints preserve us but this thread is going rapidly downhill and I've no-one to blame but myself.

Damage Limitation Attempt:

Beethoven's First symphony is great, isn't it ?