Karajan

[Quijote]

Even if the ficticious child gave its consent, the child is not legally empowered so to do, so to speak, and so the question does not arise. Aesthetics become irrelevant when the suffering of an innocent may have been involved.

Overall, a fair point. However, aesthetics functions as a singular noun, so : Aesthetics becomes irrelevant.
Fictitious, PDG, not ficticious!

'Twas indeed Myra Hindley at the Tate (and shame on all involved).

Thanks for the confirmation! A powerful work, even so, I must say.

FYI (since you chide young Preston so): "Child Murderer" = two words; not one, hyphenated.

Use of the hyphen is a grey area, really, as there are no fixed rules. Compound nouns can be written separately, written as one word, or connected by hyphens, though my use of the hyphen in child-murderer is superfluous, so you are right, stylistically.

PS. Phil. I think you emailed me a while back. I'm sorry, but I think I deleted you by mistake!

I've never been deleted before! You make me feel like a computer virus !!!!

[Quijote]

Should have never brought this up, it seems to me, , .

No Preston, it has proved most thought-provoking (with hyphen PDG, please note) ! On a more moderate note regarding your syntax etc., please don't be offended by my comments, but you do get a bit convoluted at times!
All the best.

[Quijote]

Hello Philip - I'm afraid it's your response that is misjudged. I agree politics and music are linked and I have engaged in the debate if you read my earlier posts. However I do not think it relevant to discuss anti-semitism per se (or any other ism) on this forum without any connection to music which is where we were going and where Maurice agreed not to go further - other forums exist for these issues. Unfortunately not one of your posts on this thread has any reference to music what so ever and I would have found it more interesting to have had your views on Karajan, Strauss, Bohm and Wagner.

Greetings, Peter. Agreed, anti-Semitism per se has no place on a Beethoven/Classical music forum, except when it can be related to Wagner (amongst others). Karajan's "careerist" manoeuvres involving his membership of the Nazi party is irrelevant on this thread, however.
The reason for my "popping back" to this forum was Maurice's ridiculous comment that there is often a good reason for a little anti-Semitism. This has to be firmly rebutted, and I believe I have done so. But that's enough about that subject.
You say not one of my posts on this thread has any reference to music whatsoever (in one word, Peter!). What about my reference to Beethoven's 'Battle Symphony' and Der glorreiche Augenblick, op. 136?

As to conducting styles (Karajan, Böhm et al...), I have no particularly insightful things to say, I must confess. That said, I do consider Karajan to be somewhat of a "showman", though this is very probably linked to TV. In live performance, one would not normally be able to see the "facial histrionics" of the conductor, and anyway, as we all know, the real work has already been done in rehearsal. Personally, I very much admire the conducting style of Pierre Boulez : no "histrionics", no overly-theatrical gestures, just neat and precise conducting (no baton, by the way!), impeccable respect of the score, and an infallible ear for orchestral "tuning" (no easy feat).

[Quijote]

Talking of Karajan specifically then, I have one comment to make, finally. I have an EMI CD of Bruckner's 4th symphony recorded by Karajan / Berlin Philharmonic (1970), with the 1878-80 performing version. Comparing this to Barenboim's performance (Berlin, October 1992, same version), I notice a little "editorial" modification made by Karajan : at 15'04" there is an octave leap in the first violins that is definitely not in the score (Haas). Is our dear Herbert von K trying to make improvements, I wonder?
I have to say, though, that the 'unauthorized' octave leap does add a certain dramatic intensity, despite the slightly suspect 'slide' which could have been better articulated.

[Peter]

Talking of Karajan specifically then, I have one comment to make, finally. I have an EMI CD of Bruckner's 4th symphony recorded by Karajan / Berlin Philharmonic (1970), with the 1878-80 performing version. Comparing this to Barenboim's performance (Berlin, October 1992, same version), I notice a little "editorial" modification made by Karajan : at 15'04" there is an octave leap in the first violins that is definitely not in the score (Haas). Is our dear Herbert von K trying to make improvements, I wonder?
I have to say, though, that the 'unauthorized' octave leap does add a certain dramatic intensity, despite the slightly suspect 'slide' which could have been better articulated.

Yes Karajan did take liberties (don't all conductors to some extent?). I'm not sure about the Bruckner as I'm not over familiar with the different versions but it doesn't sound a great crime. However in today's purist HIP world many would disagree, though I wonder just how close to reality our so-called HIP really are?

[Quijote]

Yes Karajan did take liberties (don't all conductors to some extent?). I'm not sure about the Bruckner as I'm not over familiar with the different versions but it doesn't sound a great crime. However in today's purist HIP world many would disagree, though I wonder just how close to reality our so-called HIP really are?

I can give a more precise location of the 'unauthorized' octave* leap in the Bruckner / Karajan example mentioned above : the transposition takes place in bars 409 - 412, and it is definitely not in the 1878/80 performing version. In addition, the passage is clearly marked (starting in bar 405 through to 413) pp sempre, but Karajan offers us a rapid crescendo to f in bar 409, and ff at bar 413 onwards. Again, such a reading is not in the score. That makes two liberties taken by Karajan in the space of 8 bars. I have the score with me now, so I'll give it closer inspection as the CD plays.

No, not a great crime, and the passage actually 'works' as the drama is enhanced, so to speak. However, in effect Karajan has rewritten 8 bars. Do we accept Wagner's and Mahler's rewriting of passages in Beethoven's Ninth in that case, too?

* Actually, not an octave, the leap is from a C flat to a B flat.

[Peter]

I can give a more precise location of the 'unauthorized' octave* leap in the Bruckner / Karajan example mentioned above : the transposition takes place in bars 409 - 412, and it is definitely not in the 1878/80 performing version. In addition, the passage is clearly marked (starting in bar 405 through to 413) pp sempre, but Karajan offers us a rapid crescendo to f in bar 409, and ff at bar 413 onwards. Again, such a reading is not in the score. That makes two liberties taken by Karajan in the space of 8 bars. I have the score with me now, so I'll give it closer inspection as the CD plays.

No, not a great crime, and the passage actually 'works' as the drama is enhanced, so to speak. However, in effect Karajan has rewritten 8 bars. Do we accept Wagner's and Mahler's rewriting of passages in Beethoven's Ninth in that case, too?

* Actually, not an octave, the leap is from a C flat to a B flat.

Yes but surely Bruckner is a special case? I believe there are something like 6 different editions of the 4th symphony. Could Karajan have not taken these liberties with the other editions in mind?

[Quijote]

Yes but surely Bruckner is a special case? I believe there are something like 6 different editions of the 4th symphony. Could Karajan have not taken these liberties with the other editions in mind?

A special case, yes. This almost prompts me to revive the "What is a work" question, but I'll refrain.
Let us consider your point about Karajan taking such liberties with the other versions in mind. Well, I also have in front of me the first 1874 score, representing his initial completed work. The differences between the 1874 and 1878/80 version are astonishing, but nevertheless the passage I mentioned in my posting above is almost the same in the original 1874 version, at least in the first violin part (although of course the bar-numbering has changed somewhat) : the melodic curve is identical, and there is no C flat - B flat leap in the first violins (just a simple tone step down from C flat to B flat), and the dynamics once again point up Karajan's deviance from the score. In the 1874 version, the dynamics are (for the same passage under consideration) p, cresc., dim., p, dim., ff.
So, if Karajan allowed himself to take liberties with other versions in mind, he also chose not to follow Bruckner's initial intentions. I can't comment on the other performing versions, as I don't have access to them, and I doubt very much that Karajan did.

[Sorrano]

Nor is Karajan alone among recent conductors to take liberties with Bruckner's music. For example, it is quite common to add cymbals to the slow movements of the 7th and 8th. I may be wrong, but I don't think Bruckner's initial intention was to include them. Of course, the conductors of Bruckner's era most certainly did take liberties, cutting entire sections, etc!

[Sorrano]

A correction on my previous post: the 8th symphony of Bruckner was apparently scored with the cymbal in the slow movement but there is controversy whether or not he wanted that in the slow movement of the 7th. I've heard both ways with both symphonies, so there is a bit of license taken by several conductors, probably most. Karajan is not alone.

[Peter]

A special case, yes. This almost prompts me to revive the "What is a work" question, but I'll refrain.
Let us consider your point about Karajan taking such liberties with the other versions in mind. Well, I also have in front of me the first 1874 score, representing his initial completed work. The differences between the 1874 and 1878/80 version are astonishing, but nevertheless the passage I mentioned in my posting above is almost the same in the original 1874 version, at least in the first violin part (although of course the bar-numbering has changed somewhat) : the melodic curve is identical, and there is no C flat - B flat leap in the first violins (just a simple tone step down from C flat to B flat), and the dynamics once again point up Karajan's deviance from the score. In the 1874 version, the dynamics are (for the same passage under consideration) p, cresc., dim., p, dim., ff.
So, if Karajan allowed himself to take liberties with other versions in mind, he also chose not to follow Bruckner's initial intentions. I can't comment on the other performing versions, as I don't have access to them, and I doubt very much that Karajan did.

As Sorrano points out other conductors also take liberties! Karajan is particularly famed for the sound he produces from the orchestra and aside from the 'liberties' which were obviously thought out musically do you actually like his interpretation?

[Quijote]

... [A]side from the 'liberties' which were obviously thought out musically do you actually like his interpretation?

I agree, the liberties taken 'work', musically. Yes, I do like his reading on the CD in question.

Now if you will excuse me, I have a sudden urge to rewrite large chunks of Beethoven's First Symphony (add icon thing, the smiling one).

[Quijote]

In light of the postings I made above about Karajan and the 1874 / 1878-80 performing versions of Bruckner's 4th, I would like to ask fellow Bruckner fan Sorrano a little question.

Sorrano, could you recommend me a CD performance of Bruckner 4 using the 1874 edition? Although I have the score and can "hear" it, I only have an impression and so really need to hear the music played. I know Roger Norrington has made a CD with the 1874 score, but are there others that you know of that might be worth listening to?

Many thanks in advance.

[Sorrano]

Sorry, Philip, I do not have any recordings of that version. It is possible that I might have had one on LP, but all my records have been given away.

[Quijote]

Sorry, Philip, I do not have any recordings of that version. It is possible that I might have had one on LP, but all my records have been given away.

No problem, Sorrano, thanks anyway. I'll probably go then for the Norrington, as a starter. If you get a chance to check out the 1874 score, please do so; you'll be taken a little aback, as it's quite a different symphony!