Karajan

[PDG]

...but if such conductors as Solti and Barenboim can disassociate Nazism from the music then so should the rest of us be able to.

Good point, but of course they (like Karajan) were not composers. I suggest that interpretors have an automatic escape clause, while artistic creators stand naked!

[Preston]

Some very interesting questions, if I may say! I guess that the primary question is this:

Surely if a piece of music is great or an interpretation sublime, it is that we should consider rather than the faults of the individual? - in that respect we should all be found wanting.

Peter, at first, I thought to myself I absolutely agree, but then I started thinking, because while I have thought in ways about this question, I have never thought about it deeply.

I am going to try to explain my thoughts about your question, perhaps I am wrong, perhaps I am right. I hope that I don't get to off topic here, .

PDG, raises some good points, as do you. It seems to me that, well lets say Wagner, that there is more than just one side, so to say, to art. So while we enjoy Wagner's beautiful themes, melodies, etc., do we enjoy the other side of his music, his wrongful and prejudice thoughts in his music. For instance, in his famous opera, The Ring of the Nibelung, he supposedly expressed in several of the characters his antisemitism views. So my point is while I want to hear his beautiful themes, I do not think that I would want to hear his antisemitism thoughts in his music, if you understand what I mean. So there are probably a lot of things that we, the listeners, do want to hear, while there is also music by the composer that we would not enjoy, because we disagree.

I am very tolerant of people though, like I said before, so Wagner is fine with me, even if he had prejudice views, because I can easily tolerate things of such nature in people, I mean it is part of being human and is understanding.

This is why I brought up the point, when does tolerance end and disagreeing begin?

For me it is when a person, who I am extremely caring and tolerant of, goes to far. Such as, what if Wagner, had taken his antisemitism views to the extreme, then I would consider it wrong, and I would completely disagree.

So what I have tried to explain is, why we should not completely differ an artist from their art, and have come to the conclusion that maybe we shouldn't because, as PDG said, what if the art was sublime but was painted with something wrong, so to say. I am not saying that I am right, these are just some thoughts I have, because it seems to me that you and PDG have been talking about this.

As Chaszz, who I wish still posted on the forum, once said something about how he did not feel an artist could be differed from their art, and he was an artist. Chaszz where are you!

Imagine if a great painter created a fantastic work but that it turned out the paints used were mixed with a child's blood. Should we still admire the work, unreservedly? (Sorry for the gory analogy, but I hope the point is understood).

Good point PDG, although quite gory, indeed, . No, I do not think that we should admire their work, unreservedly, based on the reasons I expressed above.

No need for an apology Preston as your post does raise some interesting issues about the relationship between an artist and his work which perhaps deserve their own thread. I agree it's best to stay clear of politics, religion and sex on our forums unless particularly relevant to the subject (oh dear I hear some sigh!) but I'd say we were discussing history more in this thread.

Thank you for your understanding. It probably does need its own thread, although I just went on about it, only because it was being discussed. I agree that it is definitely best to stay away from the things that you mentioned, on both of the forums.

[Peter]

Please allow me to answer your question in my own way! Strauss is beyond redemption anyway, having been a mere toady. Chopin is an interesting case having been a Pole, and I may have to get back to you on this specific point.

Eliot and Pound? Sorry, but I read The Beano.

PDG you always begin your responses with an accusation and a reprimand which is obviously 'your own way' of which I'm growing rather fond. Strauss a mere 'toady'? Well there is no doubt he held strong anti-semitic views but that doesn't mean he supported the extreme actions of the third reich. 1935, Strauss was forced to resign his position as Reichsmusikkammer president, after refusing to remove from the playbill for Die schweigsame Frau the name of the Jewish librettist, his friend Stefan Zweig. He had written Zweig a supportive letter, insulting to the Nazis, which was intercepted by the Gestapo.

[Peter]

Some very interesting questions, if I may say! I guess that the primary question is this:

Peter, at first, I thought to myself I absolutely agree, but then I started thinking, because while I have thought in ways about this question, I have never thought about it deeply.

I am going to try to explain my thoughts about your question, perhaps I am wrong, perhaps I am right. I hope that I don't get to off topic here, .

Preston I understand your views and it is a very difficult area. Now suppose you hear a Gesualdo madrigal but without knowing the composer's name and are moved by its beauty or similarly you are stunned by a Caravaggio painting. If you then are told the names and that both were murderers does their work suddenly become unacceptable and debased? Is it no longer great art? What has changed? Not the works themselves but your perception is altered by a few words because you then apply the sins of the man to his work as though it to is guilty. That is how I see it, but I admit it took a while to reach that point. The trouble is we expect our geniuses to be saints and they are not.

[Hofrat]

Despite all statements to the contrary, Wagner's music is rife with antisemitic content. Many musicians were antisemites at that time, but only Wagner embedded his hateful ideas into the fabric of his musical dramas. The examples are numerous.

[Maurice Colgan]

Despite all statements to the contrary, Wagner's music is rife with antisemitic content. Many musicians were antisemties at that time, but only Wagner embedded his hateful ideas into the fabric of his musical dramas. The examples are numerous.

I prefer Barenboim's very civilised approach to music.

Charles Dicken's has been accused of ant-semitism but we flock to see "Oliver Twist" etc. There's often a good reason for a little anti-semitism, the term is often used as a weapon these days to taint quite innocent people.

I have read a great many very intelligent jewish writers and a lot of them could be easily accused of anti-semitism.

Dicken's based his Fagin on a real character Ikey Soloman. I have met his like on dozens of occasions.

Didn't stop me marrying a beautiful "Jewish" girl in 1959, and we are still world's apart after almost 50 years of close up inspection. Already. :-)

"Land of Hope and Glory" is quite a laugh to a lot of Irish people, do we ban the composer. Not at all.

http://irelandtoo.blogspot.com

[Preston]

The trouble is we expect our geniuses to be saints and they are not.

I see what you are saying, but if I thought that, then it would be awfully naive of me. I know that the geniuses are far from perfect, as am I, this is why I tried to say, that our human flaws are part of being human.

Not the works themselves but your perception is altered by a few words because you then apply the sins of the man to his work as though it to is guilty. That is how I see it, but I admit it took a while to reach that point.

This is what I tried to explain above, maybe I didn't succeed. When I am touched by art, I believe in the art and the person who made it, even if I don't know anything about the artist. It would, also be very naive of me, to simply, almost without thought, say well forget that piece this man was a sinner, in other words I would never do that. I was trying to explain this by saying that I believe that the great artists are pretty much their art. This is why I referred to Wagner, sure I enjoy his beautiful themes and melodies, but as Hofrat said about his music containing his thoughts and hate towards Jewish people, I would not want to hear. No, I do not have a problem with Wagner, just so you know, .

[Hofrat]

There's often a good reason for a little anti-semitism.

Please explain what is a "good" reason for a "little" anti-semitism.

[Maurice Colgan]

Please explain what is a "good" reason for a "little" anti-semitism.

In all generalisations there is usually a little truth.

Do Irish people drink, fight, and curse a lot?

I once read an account by a jewish soldier in the german army in the first world war of how he was ashamed of the grasping hasidic jews in Eastern Europe.

He would be regarded by the over sensitive as being anti-semitic instead of just an honest man!

I could go into the whole history but just do not have the inclination or time.

I lived and worked with a great many Jewish people and have a great admiration for the impact they as a people have had on our culture.

http://irelandtoo.blogspot.com

[Peter]

I think at this point the topic has strayed too far away from our remit, so can we keep to musical connections please. The original post was about Karajan so it would be nice to hear some views on his conducting rather than the politics of his youth!

[Maurice Colgan]

I think at this point the topic has strayed too far away from our remit, so can we keep to musical connections please.

Agreed.

No more politics from me.

[Quijote]

The gravitational pull of this forum forces me to return to earth temporarily. I would like to make several comments on recent postings in this "Karajan" thread. And Peter did say he would be glad if I popped back from time to time. So here I am.

Dicken's based his Fagin on a real character Ikey Soloman. I have met his like on dozens of occasions.

Me too, dozens of times. Some were Irish.

[Quijote]

Please explain what is a "good" reason for a "little" anti-semitism.

Good point. I believe Maurice Colgan does not really answer it in any meaningful way. See his "response" above.

[Quijote]

In all generalisations there is usually a little truth. I once read an account by a jewish soldier in the german army in the first world war of how he was ashamed of the grasping hasidic jews in Eastern Europe. He would be regarded by the over sensitive as being anti-semitic instead of just an honest man! http://irelandtoo.blogspot.com

Your pro-semitic stance is admirable, Maurice, your spelling less so : Jewish with a capital 'J'; German with a capital 'G'; First World War, with capital 'W'; Jew with a capital 'J', and so on. You would expect great attention to the detail in a musical score by any performer; we would expect the same care in written language. Lesson over. See me after for 'six-of-the-best' (a good caning, in the vernacular).

With reference to the account you relate above, and as to generalisations having a little truth, well then, here is a generalisation for you : as a soldier he was probably from a working-class background and of limited education. Should we set much store by what he had to say? And are we to understand that on the account of one soldier Hasidic Jews from Eastern Europe are (in general) grasping?

[Quijote]

I think at this point the topic has strayed too far away from our remit, so can we keep to musical connections please. The original post was about Karajan so it would be nice to hear some views on his conducting rather than the politics of his youth!

Peter, politics and music are inseparable, and you know very well that music does not exist autonomously. To relate politics to music, we need only think of the so-called 'Battle Symphony', or even works such as Der glorreiche Augenblick, op. 136, written expressly for the Congress of Vienna. The Karajan-Nazi-Jewish-Wagner equation is but another manifestation of that musico-political reality, and to deny it its place on this forum is misjudged, frankly.