Karajan

[Peter]

Peter, a surprisingly dogmatic and aloof response from you, I think. So you now accept that Tchaikovsky was 'gay'? I think Preston may have been expecting a less rigid response...

Perhaps you should provide it then? Perhaps you'd also explain what you find dogmatic about advocating tolerance and understanding? As to Tchaikovsky I've always known he was gay and I couldn't give a damn - I love the man and his music.

[Peter]

I do have the Karajan DVD; I've enjoyed listening to his performances very much. His earlier Beethoven cycle ('60's) is supposed to be his better recordings of the symphonies.

Yes that is the general concensus - still I think nice to have a visual record. Do you have his Bruckner symphonies on dvd as well?

[PDG]

Perhaps you should provide it then? Perhaps you'd also explain what you find dogmatic about advocating tolerance and understanding? As to Tchaikovsky I've always known he was gay and I couldn't give a damn - I love the man and his music.

I've always thought that T probably was of that orientation, but that there was no solid evidence? I love his music, too.

I thought you were preaching to Preston rather than 'advocating'. Sorry if I offended you...

[PDG]

PDG, did you make it to the Beethoven concert in Vienna?

Alas, my family ignored my birthday wish list item #1, and did not club together for the trip. I don't think they took my request seriously. Hmph...

[PDG]

.


The Nazi Party is hard, for me, to understand. It is hard to understood why Nazi's enjoyed making people suffer so much, why they had such sadistic ideas, etc., not saying anything about Karajan. Although, I guess that you can understand what they believed in, which is another example of religion being used, wrongly, for power, etc. There has always been a problem with religious beliefs turning into wars, etc. It is clear that the majority of the Nazi party was wrong, and to me, not understanding.

I am very tolerant of other people's views, especially religion, but when it turns to cold blooded murder of the masses, priests raping children, wars, etc., then it is damn hard to be tolerant of.

A complicated issue, of course. Can anyone really listen to Wagner without imagining the suffering of the Jews? I cannot. Maybe that's a failing on my part.

Peter's right, I think, that a man's music and political (or any other) beliefs should be kept separate, but there always remains the possibility that the evil or sadism in his head is actually driving him or inspiring him to create his music. In this respect, I think it is fundamentally correct to try and distance ourselves from his art. Imagine if a great painter created a fantastic work but that it turned out the paints used were mixed with a child's blood. Should we still admire the work, unreservedly? (Sorry for the gory analogy, but I hope the point is understood).

[Sorrano]

Sir, your humility deserves the biggest slice of Humble Pie this side of the Grand Canyon...................

Pie?? Now I'm getting hungry. It isn't so much humility; if I have spoken out of turn and am wrong that is simply the way it is.

[Sorrano]

Yes that is the general concensus - still I think nice to have a visual record. Do you have his Bruckner symphonies on dvd as well?

The only Karajan recording I have of Bruckner is a CD set of the 8th Symphony. It's been a long time since I've listened to that one so I might have to check it out. I didn't know these were available in DVD format; I'll look into that!

[Sorrano]

A complicated issue, of course. Can anyone really listen to Wagner without imagining the suffering of the Jews? I cannot. Maybe that's a failing on my part.

Peter's right, I think, that a man's music and political (or any other) beliefs should be kept separate, but there always remains the possibility that the evil or sadism in his head is actually driving him or inspiring him to create his music. In this respect, I think it is fundamentally correct to try and distance ourselves from his art. Imagine if a great painter created a fantastic work but that it turned out the paints used were mixed with a child's blood. Should we still admire the work, unreservedly? (Sorry for the gory analogy, but I hope the point is understood).

I do maintain a hate/love relationship with Wagner. The man I can hardly stand, but the music is something I've simply got to have. Fortunately, he was not in any position to participate in the ghastly holocaust and whether he would have or not I do not care to ponder.

[Peter]

I've always thought that T probably was of that orientation, but that there was no solid evidence? I love his music, too.

I thought you were preaching to Preston rather than 'advocating'. Sorry if I offended you...

I think the evidence is there if you read between the lines. You'll have to do a lot better than that to cause offence! Now on second thoughts your Wagner comments! The last thing I (and I'm sure most people) think of when listening to Wagner is the holocaust, I mean honestly he died 50 years before and you are simply making the association because Hitler admired him. I'm the last person to defend Wagner's egotistical, arrogant nature or his antisemetism but the music is something else. It always amazes how lightly Richard Strauss gets off on this issue in comparison to Wagner - a far stronger case can be made against him, but I wouldn't make that either for the reasons already expressed.

[Preston]

Preston - that simply isn't the issue. No one here is going to disagree with your views on Nazism (which we do have the other forum to discuss this is in if you wish). My initial post was on Karajan and I mean Karajan the musician. You immediately jumped on the nazi band-waggon which I think is rather unfortunate.

It is probably best we don't talk about politics on this forum or the other forum, .

I am aware that the initial discussion was about Karajan, and still is. By no means was I trying to turn into a political discussion! I guess that it just kind of somewhat happened. In my first post, I was just explaining some concerns that I have had about him, call it what you will, and then it escalated. I tried to still keep it on Karajan and about him, I was only trying to explain about why I feel the way I do (not that I feel that badly towards Karajan, which I have said several times), I probably shouldn't have done this. I apologize and I know that a lot of people disagree. Sorry if I caused anyone offense.

[Peter]

It is probably best we don't talk about politics on this forum or the other forum, .

I am aware that the initial discussion was about Karajan, and still is. By no means was I trying to turn into a political discussion! I guess that it just kind of somewhat happened. In my first post, I was just explaining some concerns that I have had about him, call it what you will, and then it escalated. I tried to still keep it on Karajan and about him, I was only trying to explain about why I feel the way I do (not that I feel that badly towards Karajan, which I have said several times), I probably shouldn't have done this. I apologize and I know that a lot of people disagree. Sorry if I caused anyone offense.

No need for an apology Preston as your post does raise some interesting issues about the relationship between an artist and his work which perhaps deserve their own thread. I agree it's best to stay clear of politics, religion and sex on our forums unless particularly relevant to the subject (oh dear I hear some sigh!) but I'd say we were discussing history more in this thread.

[Hollywood]

I Watched a documentary on Karajan last night - I have to admit I think he is very impressive to watch as a conductor, such total control and concentration. Does anyone have his dvd's of the Beethoven symphonies?

Von Karajan is still my all time favorite conductor. Most of my Beethoven cds are conducted by him. For me he has always been the best interpreter of Beethoven's music, but some would say the reason for that was that I had such a crush on him when I was young. For me he could do no wrong and he was quite a handsome devil with the most beautiful blue eyes I have ever seen.

[PDG]

The last thing I (and I'm sure most people) think of when listening to Wagner is the holocaust, I mean honestly he died 50 years before and you are simply making the association because Hitler admired him.

Oh dear, you don't give me much credit, do you? I'd imagine that most informed Jewish people do at least give a passsing thought to the holocaust when listening to Wagner. If they listen to him at all, that is.
Of course I am aware that Wagner and Hitler weren't exactly squash partners (!); the 'association' is because of the documented anti-semitic comments. The seeds of Nazism were blowing in the wind before the 20th Century...

[Peter]

Oh dear, you don't give me much credit, do you? I'd imagine that most informed Jewish people do at least give a passsing thought to the holocaust when listening to Wagner. If they listen to him at all, that is.
Of course I am aware that Wagner and Hitler weren't exactly squash partners (!); the 'association' is because of the documented anti-semitic comments. The seeds of Nazism were blowing in the wind before the 20th Century...

What about when listening to Chopin and Richard Strauss or reading Ezra Pound or T.S.Elliot? Do these conjure up similar images for you? Probably not and I suspect it's down to the whole Nazi cult that associated itself with Bayreuth, but if such conductors as Solti and Barenboim can disassociate Nazism from the music then so should the rest of us be able to.

[PDG]

What about when listening to Chopin and Richard Strauss or reading Ezra Pound or T.S.Elliot? Do these conjure up similar images for you? Probably not...

Please allow me to answer your question in my own way! Strauss is beyond redemption anyway, having been a mere toady. Chopin is an interesting case having been a Pole, and I may have to get back to you on this specific point.

Eliot and Pound? Sorry, but I read The Beano.