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    #76
    Please, please, please, please, please excuse me if I bring back non-musical, non-beethoven issues, but I was looking for some record references on the internet and came across this article (simply typing Barenboim and Wagner at google). I'm quite critical with Barenboim as a pianist, less critical as director. Having said that I find his activism for peace and his opinions quite interesting. Perhaps I'm lucky enough to try and achieve to erase other images or facts when listening to Wagner's music and I guess the following article (from jewish journal Haaretz) demonstrates that there's other people who does the same exercise.

    (link http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/914009.html )

    Barenboim: New Wagner staging would make Hitler 'turn in grave'

    By The Associated Press

    An opera by Richard Wagner - whose music and anti-Semitic writings influenced Adolf Hitler - will be performed at an open-air theater built under the Nazi regime by an orchestra made up of Israeli and Arab musicians and conducted by a Jew.

    Star conductor Daniel Barenboim told Germany's Die Zeit newspaper that the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, which he co-founded, plans next year to perform the first act of Wagner's Die Walkuere at Berlin's Waldbuehne - an arena built as part of the complex for the 1936 Olympics by the Nazis.

    "Can you imagine that?" Barenboim was quoted as saying in the interview, released Wednesday. "The Waldbuehne was built by Hitler. The music is Wagner. Played by us! Hitler and Wagner would turn in their graves."

    Barenboim said the Divan Orchestra, made up of young musicians from Israel, the Palestinian territories and neighboring Arab countries, is clearly the most important musical project of his life.

    He and the late Palestinian scholar Edward Said founded the group in 1999 in a gesture for peaceful coexistence in the Middle East.

    "I had long pondered how it was possible that such gruesome despots like Hitler and Stalin could be such huge lovers of music," he said. My explanation: "For them the music was a kind of secret garden, their own realm, that had nothing to do with real life."

    Barenboim, who was born in Argentina and holds Israeli citizenship, has been known to make provocative musical selections in the past.

    In 2001 he caused an uproar in Israel when he broke the country's unofficial ban on Wagner and led the Berlin Staatskapelle Orchestra in a performance of part of the opera Tristan und Isolde.

    He said the Divan Orchestra has also played the opera and that it was the Israeli musicians who chose it - for the pure instrumental reason that it gave the brass section a lot to play.

    "It had purely musical reasoning," he told Die Zeit. "With Wagner it is never about the politics or Wagner the person, but about his great music."

    END OF ARTICLE

    --> P.D.: Bruckner 4th 1874? Telarc, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra / Jesus Lopez Cobos. To stick to the topic a little bit at least

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      #77
      I thought that I would not have to respond to this thread but the last posting provoked me. If it is not clear to the participants of this forum, I am Israeli. I have tried to stay ambivalent with respect to Daniel Baremboim views, but he has made it very difficult for me as the years went by. Public performances of Wagner's music is banned in Israel not only because of the sensitivity of the Holocaust survivors and not only because of its adoption by the Nazi regime. Wagner is banned because of his depiction of the Jewish people in his music where he uses classical 19th century antisemitic characterisms. That is the point that Baremboim refuses to grasp.
      "Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"

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        #78
        Originally posted by Hofrat View Post
        I thought that I would not have to respond to this thread but the last posting provoked me. If it is not clear to the participants of this forum, I am Israeli. I have tried to stay ambivalent with respect to Daniel Baremboim views, but he has made it very difficult for me as the years went by. Public performances of Wagner's music is banned in Israel not only because of the sensitivity of the Holocaust survivors and not only because of its adoption by the Nazi regime. Wagner is banned because of his depiction of the Jewish people in his music where he uses classical 19th century antisemitic characterisms. That is the point that Baremboim refuses to grasp.
        Well written, and said, Hofrat. Sounds like a very sensitive and serious thing, Wagner's music, in Israel- and rightfully so.
        Last edited by Preston; 03-06-2009, 05:15 AM.
        - I hope, or I could not live. - written by H.G. Wells

        Comment


          #79
          Originally posted by Hofrat View Post
          I thought that I would not have to respond to this thread but the last posting provoked me. If it is not clear to the participants of this forum, I am Israeli. I have tried to stay ambivalent with respect to Daniel Baremboim views, but he has made it very difficult for me as the years went by. Public performances of Wagner's music is banned in Israel not only because of the sensitivity of the Holocaust survivors and not only because of its adoption by the Nazi regime. Wagner is banned because of his depiction of the Jewish people in his music where he uses classical 19th century antisemitic characterisms. That is the point that Baremboim refuses to grasp.
          I didn't think Wagner was ever officially banned in Israel? This link seems to me to provide a balanced discussion on the issues and I certainly respect and understand your position Hofrat, though I'm not in favour of banning culture.

          http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...sm/Wagner.html
          'Man know thyself'

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by Hofrat View Post
            I thought that I would not have to respond to this thread but the last posting provoked me. If it is not clear to the participants of this forum, I am Israeli. I have tried to stay ambivalent with respect to Daniel Baremboim views, but he has made it very difficult for me as the years went by. Public performances of Wagner's music is banned in Israel not only because of the sensitivity of the Holocaust survivors and not only because of its adoption by the Nazi regime. Wagner is banned because of his depiction of the Jewish people in his music where he uses classical 19th century antisemitic characterisms. That is the point that Baremboim refuses to grasp.
            Good points. The Israeli "ban" on Wagner as Hofrat points out is not solely on the Nazi connections, but (more importantly) on its continuing anti-Semitic stereotyping. Another point is that it is a "public" ban; there are no legal sanctions to listening to Wagner privately. To put this in context, forum members should know that the Nazis also "appropriated" Bruckner for their own racist propaganda, though he was quickly re-assimilated after the war.

            Comment


              #81
              Originally posted by Philip View Post
              Good points. The Israeli "ban" on Wagner as Hofrat points out is not solely on the Nazi connections, but (more importantly) on its continuing anti-Semitic stereotyping. Another point is that it is a "public" ban; there are no legal sanctions to listening to Wagner privately. To put this in context, forum members should know that the Nazis also "appropriated" Bruckner for their own racist propaganda, though he was quickly re-assimilated after the war.
              And what about Richard Strauss? Aside from the debate about his associations with the Nazis, some of his letters were vehemently anti-semitic. There are also a whole host of musicians from Karajan, Szell to Cortot who openly collaborated - are their recordings banned?
              'Man know thyself'

              Comment


                #82
                Originally posted by Peter View Post
                And what about Richard Strauss? Aside from the debate about his associations with the Nazis, some of his letters were vehemently anti-semitic. There are also a whole host of musicians from Karajan, Szell to Cortot who openly collaborated - are their recordings banned?
                I have no idea, nor do I care. My point about Bruckner was this : the Nazis appropriated him as their great white symphonic hero (read : "absolute music") and came up with all sorts of nationalist and propagandist nonsense to make this simple, unassuming composer a paragon of the continuing German symphonic tradition. Bruckner's music was rapidly 're-assimilated' after the war exactly because there was nothing anti-Semitic about his persona or his music.

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                  #83
                  Originally posted by Peter View Post
                  I Watched a documentary on Karajan last night - I have to admit I think he is very impressive to watch as a conductor, such total control and concentration. Does anyone have his dvd's of the Beethoven symphonies?
                  Where can I watch this documentary? Is it available on DVD? Or is it viewable online? I'd love to watch it...

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Originally posted by Peter View Post
                    I Watched a documentary on Karajan last night - I have to admit I think he is very impressive to watch as a conductor, such total control and concentration. Does anyone have his dvd's of the Beethoven symphonies?
                    I have one DVD of him conducting the Ninth. I wish it had shown a little more of the orchestra and less of Karajan.

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Just bought the Karajan Symphony Edition ( DG) for £28 on Amazon. Has his 70's Beethoven set, as well as complete cycles of Brahms, Schummann, Mendelssohn and Tchaikovsky and Haydn's London and Paris symphonies and the later Mozart symphonies - all recorded in the 70's and 80's. 38 CD's in all. Incredible bargain considering that HMV were selling just the Bruckner's from this set for £40 last time i was in. Wonderful music making whatever you think of the man. Only wish they'd found room for his Mahler.....
                      Beethoven the Man!

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                        #86
                        Originally posted by Michael View Post
                        I have one DVD of him conducting the Ninth. I wish it had shown a little more of the orchestra and less of Karajan.
                        Yes, like those filmed Nazi Youth rallies. The director giving us too many shots of Mr Hitler... (not that I'm implying any connection)...

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                          #87
                          Originally posted by firoze View Post
                          Where can I watch this documentary? Is it available on DVD? Or is it viewable online? I'd love to watch it...
                          Yes it's easily available on DVD - Karajan directed by Robert Dornhelm.
                          'Man know thyself'

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                            #88
                            Originally posted by Peter View Post
                            Yes it's easily available on DVD - Karajan directed by Robert Dornhelm.
                            Thank you Peter!

                            Are there any other DVD's on Beethoven or Karajan you would recommend? (Aside from Immortal Beloved and Copying Beethoven).

                            Comment


                              #89
                              The BBC great composer series is available on Amazon - part 2 includes Beethoven and Wagner. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Compos...7233421&sr=1-2

                              I'm not sure about on dvd but these Beethoven series are available on youtube:

                              Paul Rhyss BBC - 18 parts
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67pKZ...eature=related

                              Vazsonyi / Anthony Quayle
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSzF4...eature=related
                              'Man know thyself'

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