What are you listening to now?

[PDG]

Interesting - I always think of the 2nd violin and viola as the string quartet's inner voices.

Off the top of my head I can't think of any Beethoven Quartet where the 2nd violin holds the main melody? The viola, yes, but it does this also in movements among the Trios.

(I really must listen to the Trios tonight)...

[Peter]

Off the top of my head I can't think of any Beethoven Quartet where the 2nd violin holds the main melody? The viola, yes, but it does this also in movements among the Trios.

(I really must listen to the Trios tonight)...

Don't understand you here PDG - you said (correctly) in another thread that the lead melodies have to be shared. Beethoven following on from Haydn achieves full independence of the parts and there are plenty of examples of the second violin playing the melody in the quartets.

[Michael]

Interesting - I always think of the 2nd violin and viola as the string quartet's inner voices.

Why didn't I think of that argument. Seriously, Zevy, that is quite correct and I am always going on about listening to the inner voices of a quartet. How about that, PDG? Nineteen more pages to go!

[Chris]

I have be re-listening to the Mozart piano sonatas and variations played by Daniel Barenboim. I haven't heard these works in a while, so I thought I'd go back to them and see if my opinions on them have changed. And though Barenboim plays them all very well, I just can't muster much enthusiasm for these works. I can't imagine anyone actually dedicating himself to playing them all. I love Mozart, but I have just never loved his piano works that much.

[Quijote]

Incidentally, I am listening to one of Brendel's recordings and I notice that, while he repeats the exposition, he doesn't repeat the Grave. I have some other versions - including Serkin, I think - where the Grave is repeated and I think it slows down the whole movement, especially as it comes again at the start of the development section. What does the score say? Did Beethoven leave an option?

Others have already replied (satisfactorily) to the question. I will just add : I have the Universal Edition set edited by Heinrich Schenker (no less!), where the introductory Grave passage (bars 1 - 10) bears no repeat marks. I also think that musically it works better this way. I'll have to listen to the Schiff recital-lectures to hear his justification for repeating this section.

There is perhaps another way of looking at the opening Grave of this sonata : could it be that Beethoven is referring back to a earlier Baroque form of the “sonata”, where the first movement often bore this title (and with dotted rhythm), as well as in the French Ouverture style ? If we were to accept this angle, the Grave in op. 13 indeed does function as a sort of ‘ouverture’, and hence not to be repeated.

[Quijote]

In a certains sense, the string trio is a more difficult art - technically anyway.

At the risk of extending this into a more than 20-page peroration (it's true that people's concentration span has reduced radically over recent years), I felt as a string player I should say something. Which I will. Please see hereafter ...

[Quijote]

I disagree with this view, Michael.

With a String Trio, there are three distinct individual voices, each with its unique range and sonority. A bit like a singing trio of soprano, tenor and bass. With a Quartet there is surely the perplexing problem of balancing two distinct violins against a viola and cello. The sonority and balance (as well as overall loudness, interplay, motivic-resolution, etc) are surely harder to satisfactorily achieve when the lead melodies have to be shared.

I think the string trio genre is a challenging one, and this mainly due to its sparseness and ability to provide the complete harmony. In a way the string quartet can more easily provide the right balance in terms of the SATB we find in choral writing, though competent composers know how to avoid that problem in string trio writing by the use of double-stopping (which is why, as Michael comments, Beethoven's trios appear at moments to be for quartet; with this in mind, you should check out Bach's suites for solo 'cello where he suggests two-part writing with only one instrument!).

Michael's terminology is a little confusing, and maybe this is why PDG and he are coming at this from different perspectives. We need to clarify if Michael means "technically" or "compositionally"?

I very much doubt, though, that B would have been able to develop his late style via the medium of the trio.

[Quijote]

Off the top of my head I can't think of any Beethoven Quartet where the 2nd violin holds the main melody? The viola, yes, but it does this also in movements among the Trios.

Well, you're right that in the common-practice classical quartet the 1st violin usually holds the main melody, but there are of course many passages in B's quartets where the 2nd violin does hold the melody for several bars, e.g. the Molto Adagio of Quartet n° 15 in A Minor. In fact, the melody is often much more 'democratically' distributed in these later quartets, compared to the earlier op. 18 set.

[Michael]

I have be re-listening to the Mozart piano sonatas and variations played by Daniel Barenboim. I haven't heard these works in a while, so I thought I'd go back to them and see if my opinions on them have changed. And though Barenboim plays them all very well, I just can't muster much enthusiasm for these works. I can't imagine anyone actually dedicating himself to playing them all. I love Mozart, but I have just never loved his piano works that much.

I listened to his Fantasia in D minor, K.397 recently and I can see where young Beethoven picked up a trick or two. If Mozart hadn't died so young, I wonder how his piano music would have developed - and indeed Beethoven's.

[Michael]

There is perhaps another way of looking at the opening Grave of this sonata : could it be that Beethoven is referring back to a earlier Baroque form of the “sonata”, where the first movement often bore this title (and with dotted rhythm), as well as in the French Ouverture style ? If we were to accept this angle, the Grave in op. 13 indeed does function as a sort of ‘ouverture’, and hence not to be repeated.

I see what you mean. There is also the curious case of the Emperor Concerto (not in the night-time!). The opening cadenza-like flourish - is it part of the sonata-form movement or just an introduction? I know that the concerto doesn't strictly obey the rules of symphonic first-movement form, but that opening is never referred to again until the recapitulation - so, is this really another throwback to the Baroque overture?
Maybe I shouldn't bring up the concerto in this context because I think it's a less constricted form than the symphony. Take Tchaikovsky's First: a tremendous opening tune that is never heard again in the entire work.
(I've been drinking some wine so I may have forgotten the point I was making - if I was trying to make a point, that is ..........)

[PDG]

Don't understand you here PDG - you said (correctly) in another thread that the lead melodies have to be shared. Beethoven following on from Haydn achieves full independence of the parts and there are plenty of examples of the second violin playing the melody in the quartets.

Well, I said "off the top of my head"! I meant lead-off main mlodies, ie. the first main tune heard in a work.

[PDG]

Why didn't I think of that argument. Seriously, Zevy, that is quite correct and I am always going on about listening to the inner voices of a quartet. How about that, PDG? Nineteen more pages to go!

But there's no second violin in a Trio! So a Trio has no 'Inner Voice'? And what does that have to do with the price of fish, anyway?...

(Here I am trying to confuse Michael because he has admitted to being tipsy...). He...he...he...

[PDG]

I love Mozart, but I have just never loved his piano works that much.

Not even the Concertos?

[PDG]

Michael's terminology is a little confusing, and maybe this is why PDG and he are coming at this from different perspectives. We need to clarify if Michael means "technically" or "compositionally"?

I very much doubt, though, that B would have been able to develop his late style via the medium of the trio.

Good points! Although I suggest that both technically and compositionally, the writing of Quartets is harder. There are examples of Great Composers who have struggled with the Quartet format (including Mozart), but I don't know of any who found writing Trios particularly daunting, as opposed to Quartet writing; rather, that there was never as strong a public appetite for Trio ensemble playing, which itself, I agree, is somewhat mystifying.

[PDG]

Well, you're right that in the common-practice classical quartet the 1st violin usually... does... Molto Adagio...

Phil, too many words in Bold. I can't read your posts anymore without wearing shades! Desist, please!!