!!!

[Michael]

Are we to consider your 'dangling participles' too, Michael? Are you, too, trying to put me off my lunch?

Funny you should mention that. Switching on my CD player yesterday, Beethoven filled the room with beautiful folksong arrangements ........

[Quijote]

Still, what a group of sanctimonious "stuffed shirts" you all are. What exactly is the complaint, may I ask? That some young rap music fan cannot engage with classical music? To think that only classical music has inherent value and meaning reveals an astonishingly narrow mindset. Michael was not able to find a title for his thread because words failed him. The parochial tone of the postings leaves me - almost - breathless.
I will abstain from further comment on this silly thread, but I leave you the following thoughts to digest : Do we really have to accept that classical western art music (WAM, in musicological shorthand) is the ultimate guarantee of the “morality of human endeavour”? And can classical music – a vestige of an increasingly distant world – still speak to us in any significant way? And who are we to presume that there is only one musical voice?

[Michael]

Oh dear, we seem to be back to the "anything goes" definition of art which would equate "War and Peace" with Tracey Emin's bed. I am not going to argue with you about this, Philip, as life is too short, and I would rather be doing something useful (like Kierkegaard, biting the heads of whippets).
I would just like to point out that the exclamatory title of my thread was not because of the poor sod who couldn't tell good music from bad, but merely my reaction to the judge who set Beethoven et al. as a form of punishment.

[Quijote]

Oh dear, we seem to be back to the "anything goes" definition of art which would equate "War and Peace" with Tracey Emin's bed. I am not going to argue with you about this, Philip, as life is too short, and I would rather be doing something useful (like Kierkegaard, biting the heads of whippets).
I would just like to point out that the exclamatory title of my thread was not because of the poor sod who couldn't tell good music from bad, but merely my reaction to the judge who set Beethoven et al. as a form of punishment.

I'll abstain a bit later. Reading and understanding text is an art. Where in my posting above do I make allusions to an "anything goes definition of art"?
So your "!!!" thread title refers to your dismay at the judge's form of punishment, does it? You should speak up, next time. The postings that followed still reveal a dismal parochialism.
Life is indeed too short, isn't it?

[Preston]

I will give a couple of your questions a shot Philip.

To think that only classical music has inherent value and meaning reveals an astonishingly narrow mindset.

I don't think that anyone has said that only classical music has inherent value and meaning. I do think, though, that everyone has said, in ways, that almost all rap does not have significant value and meaning, which I agree with. Why listen to music that's lyrics are so full of hatred, at least most of them, waste, cursing constantly, act like money and hoes are the only thing in life, etc.; when you could listen to man like Shakespeare, Goethe, Schiller, Tolstoy, Kant, and SO SO MANY MORE? Rap, seems to me, to be a menace to society, which by the way is a movie based around the thug life, it is called Menace to Society.

And can classical music – a vestige of an increasingly distant world – still speak to us in any significant way?

In so many significant ways!

Philip, I don't really get you. Do you think that 50 cent, the rapper, can compare to Beethoven? It seems that you are caught up in the hype of the popular culture, and popular arts, and have a problem breaking away from it, to me. And a problem with you is that you think you are right, and are not tolerant of others views because of it.

[Sorrano]

Well, let us put the shoe on the other foot. If I had a choice between a $150 fine and a $35 fine coupled with 20 hours of listening to pop music, I would pay the $150. If you change the pop music for the music of Bartok, I would pay $300.

I might pay the $300 to listen to the Bartok.

[Sorrano]

Philip, in regards to "reading and understanding" what I am understanding is that the principle shock here is that classical music is being used as a tool to punish. That in itself goes against everything you have already stated about being judgmental in regarding pop/rap/whatnot. (Don't even ask what whatnot is because I haven't a clue, but the word looks good to me there!) Whether the defendant likes Beethoven or not is not so much the issue as we all have different tastes. But we have an inherent judgment or rationalization by the established government that classical music is distasteful to rap fans. To misquote you: "To think that only rap/pop/whatnot music has inherent value and meaning reveals an astonishingly narrow mindset." (No, I am not accusing you of making that judgment, but this is the sort of thing I am reading from the initial post in regards to the establishment.) Your words are a two edged sword.

[Peter]

Still, what a group of sanctimonious "stuffed shirts" you all are. What exactly is the complaint, may I ask? That some young rap music fan cannot engage with classical music? To think that only classical music has inherent value and meaning reveals an astonishingly narrow mindset. Michael was not able to find a title for his thread because words failed him. The parochial tone of the postings leaves me - almost - breathless.
I will abstain from further comment on this silly thread, but I leave you the following thoughts to digest : Do we really have to accept that classical western art music (WAM, in musicological shorthand) is the ultimate guarantee of the “morality of human endeavour”? And can classical music – a vestige of an increasingly distant world – still speak to us in any significant way? And who are we to presume that there is only one musical voice?

As usual trying to be so clever and superior you miss the point which was obvious to everyone else - classical music being used as a form of punishment. Your arguments concerning the merits of classical music are only to be expected - why do you listen to it then if it isn't relevant? Personally I think that Peter Warlock's comments quoted on the homepage of this site sum it up - ". . . Music is neither old nor modern: it is either good or bad music, and the date at which it was written has no significance whatever. Dates and periods are of interest only to the student of musical history. . . . All old music was modern once, and much more of the music of yesterday already sounds more old-fashioned than works which were written three centuries ago. All good music, whatever its date, is ageless - as alive and significant today as it was when it was written . ."

[PDG]

Actually, in the interests of balance, I thought Michael's aghastness (great nonsensical word!) was at the youth's decision to pay his fine rather than listen to the classical music. Rather than the music itself being regarded as a punishment. I doubt whether this was the intention of the judge anyway, because I believe great music can have therapeutic qualities (Philip holds head in hands...), and this could be seen to be very beneficial for those young people who bombard their ears and brains, day and night, with the garbage they call music.

Michael, clarification, please?

[Michael]

Actually, in the interests of balance, I thought Michael's aghastness (great nonsensical word!) was at the youth's decision to pay his fine rather than listen to the classical music. Rather than the music itself being regarded as a punishment. I doubt whether this was the intention of the judge anyway, because I believe great music can have therapeutic qualities (Philip holds head in hands...), and this could be seen to be very beneficial for those young people who bombard their ears and brains, day and night, with the garbage they call music.

Michael, clarification, please?

The judge's choice of punishment is one more nail in the coffin of classical music. It is already being used in public buildings to dissuade undesirables from congregating in those places. A friend of mine who is quite musical still shrinks away in horror when I mention the name Beethoven. Actually, I don't mention that kind of music at all to anyone because I know the reaction I will get.
The last place I expected to get a negative reaction about great music was from this website.
(I'm not talking about you, PDG, a staunch Beethovenian and Beatlehovian like myself....... now, about those folksongs .........)

[Quijote]

As usual trying to be so clever and superior you miss the point which was obvious to everyone else - classical music being used as a form of punishment. Your arguments concerning the merits of classical music are only to be expected - why do you listen to it then if it isn't relevant? Personally I think that Peter Warlock's comments quoted on the homepage of this site sum it up - ". . . Music is neither old nor modern: it is either good or bad music, and the date at which it was written has no significance whatever. Dates and periods are of interest only to the student of musical history. . . . All old music was modern once, and much more of the music of yesterday already sounds more old-fashioned than works which were written three centuries ago. All good music, whatever its date, is ageless - as alive and significant today as it was when it was written . ."

My comments concern Peter, for the moment. Before I begin, let me add an icon thingie, the one expressing avuncular - if not indulgent - chuckling...
I never try to be clever, it really comes quite naturally to me. As to 'superior' : I am aghast. Moi, supérieur? Jamais, mon cher Pierre !

Fun over, let's get down to business. No, the point was never obvious, hence my jibe "reading and understanding text is an art". Let us review the history of Michael's original posting : Michael posts a news item (NewsWax) without comment from his part; the interpretations are twofold (not only one, Peter) : the judge is a cretin for imposing such a "fine" (agreed) or, the accused is too stupid to undergo so many hours of listening to classical music. Sorrano then posts (I paraphrase) "The guy must be lacking grey matter". Question : Who? The judge or the rap fan? Preston's posting follows on hotly from Sorrano's : "Figures" [+ icon thingie]. What does he mean? Is his position clear? No, I, fear not, but being clever I suspect he is referring to the rap fan. Not the judge. In the next posting we have Peter, categorical as ever, but at least clear (I paraphrase) : "Why oh why ... what is the world coming to .... etc etc". Hofrat enters the fray, turning the argument (quite logically) on its head, but makes disparaging remarks about Bartok. Joy now posts, saying she would quite happily pay the fine if it was rap music, Tony John Hearne is flabbergasted, but again we don't know if his reaction concerns the judge or the rap fan. Michael later makes a belated effort to clarify his position.

So, Peter, was the point really so obvious to everyone else? I think not. Allow me to continue : you say that my arguments concerning the merits of classical music are only to be expected. And you wonder why I listen to it [...] if it isn't relevant. My "comments" as you term them, were rhetorical in nature and intended to provoke thought. What makes you say my arguments are "expected"? When have I ever said (categorically) that classical music isn't "relevant"? Do you really think I would bother with such a forum as this one if I thought so? Indeed not, but because I'm a clever and superior fellow I like to think about music.

As to Warlock, yes, a nice little quote. I have played (string quartet and orchestra) the Capriol Suite many times. Pleasant, it is. Still, being a clever fellow I can't help questioning his terminology : at what point does music "become old" ?

[Quijote]

Philip, in regards to "reading and understanding" what I am understanding is that the principle shock here is that classical music is being used as a tool to punish. That in itself goes against everything you have already stated about being judgmental in regarding pop/rap/whatnot. (Don't even ask what whatnot is because I haven't a clue, but the word looks good to me there!) Whether the defendant likes Beethoven or not is not so much the issue as we all have different tastes. But we have an inherent judgment or rationalization by the established government that classical music is distasteful to rap fans. To misquote you: "To think that only rap/pop/whatnot music has inherent value and meaning reveals an astonishingly narrow mindset." (No, I am not accusing you of making that judgment, but this is the sort of thing I am reading from the initial post in regards to the establishment.) Your words are a two edged sword.

Hello Sorrano, and thank you for your temperate answer. I quite agree of course, using classical music as a punishment is absurd. But using any music as punishment is equally so, for it reveals a ideology that borders on .... (I'll let others complete the sentence, not you Sorrano).
I will try to answer your other questions on the "subjectivity thread" when I find the time! And thank you for your interest.

[Quijote]

I will give a couple of your questions a shot Philip.

I don't think that anyone has said that only classical music has inherent value and meaning. I do think, though, that everyone has said, in ways, that almost all rap does not have significant value and meaning, which I agree with. Why listen to music that's lyrics are so full of hatred, at least most of them, waste, cursing constantly, act like money and hoes are the only thing in life, etc.; when you could listen to man like Shakespeare, Goethe, Schiller, Tolstoy, Kant, and SO SO MANY MORE? Rap, seems to me, to be a menace to society, which by the way is a movie based around the thug life, it is called Menace to Society.

In so many significant ways!

Philip, I don't really get you. Do you think that 50 cent, the rapper, can compare to Beethoven? It seems that you are caught up in the hype of the popular culture, and popular arts, and have a problem breaking away from it, to me. And a problem with you is that you think you are right, and are not tolerant of others views because of it.

Hello Preston, and thank you for engaging with the questions. I can't say I have any particular answer, as they were intended rhetorically, but I'll try to answer you as best I can.

You are right, nobody on this forum has come outright and expressed such sentiments, but don't you catch a whiff of it? Besides, as I think I have mentioned before elsewhere on this forum, values (in my humble, not clever or superior) view are "constructed" and are not "absolute". You probably disagree with me on that specific point. That is not to say (pace Peter and Michael) I hold the view that all art is of equal value, and I really don't see where these two gentlemen get that idea. Referring to rap in particular, I think your negative appreciation of it is really down to bad press / hype. I certainly can't stand listening to the misogynist, violence-glorifying lyrics of some rap, but that said there does exist an alternative, notably (for me) M C Solaar (French rap artist).

Preston, I am not trying to compare 50 cent with Beethoven. I am a little peeved that you think I am "caught up in the hype of [...] popular culture, and popular arts, and have a problem breaking away from it[...]."

I am a very tolerant person !! Add icon thingie, the one expressing ...

[Quijote]

The last place I expected to get a negative reaction about great music was from this website.
(I'm not talking about you, PDG, a staunch Beethovenian and Beatlehovian like myself....... now, about those folksongs .........)

Michael, I must chide you once again. When have I ever given a "negative reaction" to great music? Or am I really so unclear in my postings?

For the record (read this carefully, I'll keep it simple) : I joined this forum because, er ... I am fascinated by the music of Beethoven. But I am engaged by other musics too. And I am incredibly clever. So there. Add icon thingie.

[Quijote]

Actually, in the interests of balance, I thought Michael's aghastness (great nonsensical word!) was at the youth's decision to pay his fine rather than listen to the classical music. Rather than the music itself being regarded as a punishment. I doubt whether this was the intention of the judge anyway, because I believe great music can have therapeutic qualities (Philip holds head in hands...), and this could be seen to be very beneficial for those young people who bombard their ears and brains, day and night, with the garbage they call music.

Michael, clarification, please?

My dear PDG, I am aghast. You seem to be supporting my argument. Surely shome mishtake?

Anyone (clever and superior like me) remember the use of Beethoven's Ninth in Ken Russell's "Clockwork Orange"? Used as a brainwashing technique / torture? And would you have any comments about that?

Michael? Peter?