Early Philharmonic Society

[Peter]

Hello PDG,



The first movement of the 9th is a mess which, to this day, is rarely played well. (Mahler's reorchestration only made things worse, if you've ever heard it.) The second has moments that are very good. The third whines. The fourth is trash. I'm sorry if this comes as a shock or seems to be rude & out of place. I have no interest in hero worship, not even for Ludwig.


One reason I gave up this board two or three years ago was all the people for whom Beethoven was a god. Above all, beyond all, greater than all. I found him much more interesting when I could look him square in the eye. I was trying to avoid the "Who is greatest? BEETHOVEN !" argument, but it seems I failed. Apologies.

I think we are fairly open here now with regards to discussing the merits of various composers and you are of course perfectly entitled to your own opinions which do not shock, but rather intrigue. I'd be interested to know why you feel that way about these pieces, as to simply describe the finale of the 9th as trash or the 1st movement as a mess is no argument!

[Peter]

I am glad to hear it (that you are not a slavish LvB fan), Peter, though you have made this clear on at least one occasion, I am happy to relate. You (we?) must do more to retain members such as Droell.

A natural affinity, you say? Oh, another time, I think ....

Out of interest, why haven't you addressed some to comments to Droell?

Patience dear Philip, as you can see I was in the process!

[Quijote]

You added "a slight dig" whilst I was composing my reply. A slight "dig"? In terms of "Isn't LvB a God?", I certainly share Droell's dismay.

[Peter]

You added "a slight dig" whilst I was composing my reply. A slight "dig"? In terms of "Isn't LvB a God?", I certainly share Droell's dismay.

No at me, but that might just be a touch of paranoia! No need for any dismay and I hope you are feeling better now.

[Quijote]

No at me, but that might just be a touch of paranoia! No need for any dismay and I hope you are feeling better now.

You, paranoid? [Add icon thingie, the one with a worried look over the shoulder].

[Droell]

Hello Droell.
First, I much appreciated reading your Ries postings and speculations, as they were new to me. Very interesting indeed.

I don't wish to be drawn into some of your arguments, namely, comments about Mendelssohn, Schubert et al. However, what did attract my attention was your last comment :

Quote : "One reason I gave up this board two or three years ago was all the people for whom Beethoven was a god. Above all, beyond all, greater than all. [...] I was trying to avoid the "Who is greatest? BEETHOVEN !" argument, but it seems I failed. [...]".

I know what you're saying, but I think if you read the postings that have been made since you first abandoned this forum (and yes, including my own postings - please see elsewhere on this site), you will see that the "Isn't Beethoven a God?" crowd has certainly thinned (with certain notable exceptions) somewhat, and this is for the better. Not all of us are slavish Beethoven fans, and some of us (not just me) take a certain pride in offering rational critiques of Beethoven. So please, don't go just yet, I'd like to read more about what you have to say about Ries.

As to Ries' music : I must confess no great familiarity with his music, but the little I have heard did strike me as "formulaic" (this is a French term I employ), more "gesture" than "content", but your posting regarding the piano concertos and so on has aroused my curiosity; and for this I thank you.

Hello Philip,

My thanks for your reply. I agree there are many aspects of Ries's music that do not sound either honest or original. We've only scratched the surface & I don't know how things will turn out when we have a better sample of his work, a better understanding of his life. If we had to judge Beethoven's stature as a composer from his Op. 49, or The Ruins of Athens, or his first symphony, we would not have the same opinion of him that we do.

I may be unique in pointing out that, as a commissioned work, the 9th, mighty as it is, is a failure. Strip the 9th of the worship it does not deserve & maybe - maybe - we can begin to see it as a record of Ludwig's relationship with Karl. Which it is. And the sheer honesty & bravery of Beethoven's music comes through, as, again & again in the first, as well as the second movements, Ludwig does not come off at all well. If you ever wanted to know just how nasty, foul-tempered, foul-mouthed that man was, it's all in those first two movements. The first movement minutely records Beethoven's efforts to destroy Karl's very soul. It is chilling music. Ludwig's abuse led Karl to attempt suicide at least once.

The third movement reminds me just how sappy Ludwig could be. What had he fallen for a few years earlier? A lantern for the blind? In the third movement, Ludwig sits Karl down & weeps. Cries. Promises anything. Begs. Whines. The battered Karl makes promises just to get out of the room. And Ludwig buys it.

But it doesn't last. What does the fourth movement start with? Every note of the chromatic scale. The rage is back, but as it cannot be resolved, Beethoven simply wanders off. London wants the piece finished, I should set the Ode & get it off my desk, is what he thought.

Now.... Study of Mozart's life after his faked death of December, 1791 continues. In the last year of his life, 1826, there arose the question, if Mozart had been given last rites. His wife, Constanze, said yes, but because she did not want to disturb the dying Mozart, she asked the priests not to clang bells on their entry. So no one heard them arrive, no one saw them arrive, save her. She was there. She saw. It was the night her husband died. Every detail was etched forever in her memory. She should know.

Geog Nikolas Nissen, who "was not there", "was not even in the country", flatly contradicted his wife. No rites were given. Why did husband & wife not agree?

Because Constanze's lie was a venal sin. For the elderly Mozart (aka Nissen), that same lie was mortal. Claim a sacrament you did not get, and just possibly the local priest would not forgive (forgiveness is discretionary), nor administer last rites when Wolfgang really did die, aged 70. The Italian efforts to sort out what he really wrote, and when, will fail until they uncover the truth about his death. The horn concerti are by Punto, it's his style. The bassoon concerto is by Hummel. Problem is, Hummel was born in 1778 & was not active until after 1800. Hummel's own concerto - a carbon copy of Mozart's - dates from 1805. Mozart's 14th violin-piano sonata is most likely by Beethoven himself. The radio played it last week. I cannot think of anyone else who ever wrote quite like that. Don't take my word for it. All these works exist on CD. Get them, and be puzzled.

Would Beethoven sell a piece like that? Sure. A sonata is 2-3 days work. Pay him say, three times what he could get from a publisher, and it's yours. Do with it what you will.

The days of Mozart, Beethoven, Ries, were most curious. There are many surprises yet to be found.

[Hofrat]

PDG;

Naxos has come out with the first of a series of CD's featuring Ries' music for solo piano. The soloist and co-editor of the music is professor Susan Kagan who is affectionately know as "Archduchess" for her work on the life and music of Archduke Rudolph. She also wrote the CD notes in which she said: "Ries was an exceptionally gifted composer in whose prophetic piano sonatas we encounter Schubert's poignant language, Mendelssohn's expressive, sweet melodies, and Chopin's brilliant figuration."

[PDG]

Welcome back, Robert!

[PDG]

PDG;

Naxos has come out with the first of a series of CD's featuring Ries' music for solo piano. The soloist and co-editor of the music is professor Susan Kagan who is affectionately know as "Archduchess" for her work on the life and music of Archduke Rudolph. She also wrote the CD notes in which she said: "Ries was an exceptionally gifted composer in whose prophetic piano sonatas we encounter Schubert's poignant language, Mendelssohn's expressive, sweet melodies, and Chopin's brilliant figuration."

Thanks, Hofrat, but I don't know why you've addressed this post to me, or what it has to do with the price of fish?...

[Droell]

PDG;

Naxos has come out with the first of a series of CD's featuring Ries' music for solo piano. The soloist and co-editor of the music is professor Susan Kagan who is affectionately know as "Archduchess" for her work on the life and music of Archduke Rudolph. She also wrote the CD notes in which she said: "Ries was an exceptionally gifted composer in whose prophetic piano sonatas we encounter Schubert's poignant language, Mendelssohn's expressive, sweet melodies, and Chopin's brilliant figuration."

The opus 11 pair were not that good. Op. 45 was better. I would like to hear more. At Archiv Music there was a reference to two CDs of string quartets, which sounded interesting. The reviewers like them, at any rate.

Can anyone tell me why we should not write, "Ries was an influence on Schubert, Mendelssohn & Chopin"? The opening theme of Beethoven's op. 109 was taken from a trivial study by Ries. Which demeans neither man.

[Quijote]

Well Droell, you seem, if I may say so, to have become a little less articulate since your last postings, so I need to read again what you have written above in more detail. Please allow me some time to 'digest'. Thanks.

[Quijote]

Thanks, Hofrat, but I don't know why you've addressed this post to me, or what it has to do with the price of fish?...

Have you been taking drugs again, PDG? And please can I have some? I thank you.

[Quijote]

Welcome back, Robert!

Who he? Schumann?

[PDG]

The opus 11 pair were not that good. Op. 45 was better. I would like to hear more. At Archiv Music there was a reference to two CDs of string quartets, which sounded interesting. The reviewers like them, at any rate.

So you don't know this music, after all? Hmmm......And you and the CD liner notes writer disagree about Op.11? Curiouser and curiouser....

I shall deal with Philip's 'challenges' to me later...

[PDG]

Who he? Schumann?

I keep on forgetting how new you are around here, Philip...