Early Philharmonic Society

[Quijote]

So you don't know this music, after all? Hmmm......And you and the CD liner notes writer disagree about Op.11? Curiouser and curiouser....

I shall deal with Philip's 'challenges' to me later...

Whilst I wait in trepidation of PDG's "threats", I take this opportunity to correct his poor grammar.

The rule, PDG, for adjectives is as follows :

Adjectives of one syllable : big - bigger / small - smaller etc.
Adjectives of two or more syllables : curious, more curious / expensive, more expensive, etc.

I agree that for reasons of - let us say - 'poetic deviation' one may well 'bend' the rules, but really PDG, we expect better of you. Send Claire to me immediately.

And see me after.

[Quijote]

I keep on forgetting how new you are around here, Philip...

Not as old as you, PDG, that's for sure.

[Droell]

So you don't know this music, after all? Hmmm......And you and the CD liner notes writer disagree about Op.11? Curiouser and curiouser....

I shall deal with Philip's 'challenges' to me later...

I like challenges...

My wife gave me a 400 CD changer for my birthday. Everything is at my fingertips. I review books for a living & sometimes I am hasty. So let's have another listen. Cue up CD no. 292.

Part of what annoyed me about the sonata in f, op. 11 no. 2, first movement, is that Ries stole a lick from Schubert's Erlkoenig. Never mind that Schubert hadn't written it yet. Theft is still theft, and Ries is guilty, as ever.

On second hearing, I liked all three. Oftentimes when I first glance at a book or hear a new recording, I want it to be something other than what it is, and judge it poorly as a result. A second hearing is always a fairer hearing, at least for me.

On the other hand, I did not care for the playing when I first heard it, and I still don't. I would like something not so dry.

[Peter]

Now.... Study of Mozart's life after his faked death of December, 1791 continues. In the last year of his life, 1826, there arose the question, if Mozart had been given last rites. His wife, Constanze, said yes, but because she did not want to disturb the dying Mozart, she asked the priests not to clang bells on their entry. So no one heard them arrive, no one saw them arrive, save her. She was there. She saw. It was the night her husband died. Every detail was etched forever in her memory. She should know.

Geog Nikolas Nissen, who "was not there", "was not even in the country", flatly contradicted his wife. No rites were given. Why did husband & wife not agree?

Because Constanze's lie was a venal sin. For the elderly Mozart (aka Nissen), that same lie was mortal. Claim a sacrament you did not get, and just possibly the local priest would not forgive (forgiveness is discretionary), nor administer last rites when Wolfgang really did die, aged 70. The Italian efforts to sort out what he really wrote, and when, will fail until they uncover the truth about his death. The horn concerti are by Punto, it's his style. The bassoon concerto is by Hummel. Problem is, Hummel was born in 1778 & was not active until after 1800. Hummel's own concerto - a carbon copy of Mozart's - dates from 1805. Mozart's 14th violin-piano sonata is most likely by Beethoven himself. The radio played it last week. I cannot think of anyone else who ever wrote quite like that. Don't take my word for it. All these works exist on CD. Get them, and be puzzled.

Would Beethoven sell a piece like that? Sure. A sonata is 2-3 days work. Pay him say, three times what he could get from a publisher, and it's yours. Do with it what you will.

The days of Mozart, Beethoven, Ries, were most curious. There are many surprises yet to be found.

This thread started so promisingly and was of interest to me but oh dear oh dear I'd forgotten your hidden agenda - honestly you're not still spouting this nonsense? Your arguments on this topic were completely demolished before and unless you have substantial new evidence to back your claims (rather than made up conspiracy theories) I suggest you drop the subject. May I remind you of your own remarks on this topic "If I am wrong, then I am wrong. Will not have been the first time. (Goethe's remark about boldness comes to mind, but that just makes me a sore looser.) Apologies to all."

[Quijote]

This thread started so promisingly and was of interest to me but oh dear oh dear I'd forgotten your hidden agenda - honestly you're not still spouting this nonsense? Your arguments on this topic were completely demolished before and unless you have substantial new evidence to back your claims (rather than made up conspiracy theories) I suggest you drop the subject. May I remind you of your own remarks on this topic "If I am wrong, then I am wrong. Will not have been the first time. (Goethe's remark about boldness comes to mind, but that just makes me a sore looser.) Apologies to all."

I cannot comment in detail, but I am slightly disappointed too. Still, let us salvage the positive : Droell's comments about Ries are stimulating, and I still intend to check out the Ries piano concertos.
However, such machinations do not inspire me to stay overlong with this forum.

[Quijote]

Well, after due consideration I think I will abstain from this thread. I maintain my previous comments regarding Ries. And I maintain my anti "Beethoven-is-God" position, too. For balance, I also maintain an anti "Cage-is-the-most-wonderful-composer-since-sliced-bread" position. In case any of you were wondering.

[Droell]

This thread started so promisingly and was of interest to me but oh dear oh dear I'd forgotten your hidden agenda - honestly you're not still spouting this nonsense? Your arguments on this topic were completely demolished before and unless you have substantial new evidence to back your claims (rather than made up conspiracy theories) I suggest you drop the subject. May I remind you of your own remarks on this topic "If I am wrong, then I am wrong. Will not have been the first time. (Goethe's remark about boldness comes to mind, but that just makes me a sore looser.) Apologies to all."

Mozart is a minor matter. I just wanted to let you know I had other interests.

Dave

[Quijote]

Well, after due consideration I think I will abstain from this thread. I maintain my previous comments regarding Ries. And I maintain my anti "Beethoven-is-God" position, too. For balance, I also maintain an anti "Cage-is-the-most-wonderful-composer-since-sliced-bread" position. In case any of you were wondering.

I post this a second time, intentionally.

[Peter]

Mozart is a minor matter. I just wanted to let you know I had other interests.

Dave

Indeed and one we have dealt with at great length before. I echo Philip's thoughts in that your comments on Ries are welcome and of interest. The detail of your research leads me to enquire if you are writing a book on Ries?

[Droell]

Indeed and one we have dealt with at great length before. I echo Philip's thoughts in that your comments on Ries are welcome and of interest. The detail of your research leads me to enquire if you are writing a book on Ries?

Unable to write a book because it will identify me & a friend of mine in Australia (hello, W!) as using somewhat unorthodox research techniques. Ries had four children. One girl died in infancy, the son died as a young man, a girl died before she could get married, and the final girl seems to have been an old maid, who was married in her 30's, and then disappeared. Ries's wife, Harriet, was distraught. She left the estate to Ferdinand's youngest brother, Hubert. He left choice artifacts to his son, Adolph (don't know how many children Hubert had), who passed some to his notable pianist daughter, Marie Gertrude Ries, who died in Australia around 1974. The immigrant Cecil Hill, if I am not mistaken, ran across the estate in the late 1970's & took an interest in Ferdinand. The rest, as they say, is history, but it is true that nothing Ries ever said or wrote can quite be taken at face value.

Ries knew a lot of people, he knew a lot of secrets. Many, though not all, of his letters survive. They are yet to be translated. To give one example of what has been lost, everyone in Vienna knew the Funeral March in the Eroica was written in memory of Marie Antoinette. Positively the entire city, to a man. I will let some bright person tell us why Vienna had an interest in the French queen so many years after her death, even though it's obvious. But Ries said, Napoleon. On the face of it, that was as insane as America naming a new warship the USS Joseph Stalin. Why did Ries say this? Was he really saying something else?

[PDG]

I will deal first with PDG's bagatelle above, and respond to Droell's posting after.
In all honesty, PDG, I don't give two hoots if the rest of the world values Beethoven more than Ries, or the inverse. I never let myself (I certainly try not to) be influenced by what "the rest of the world" thinks; I prefer to think for myself.

As do I. And Beethoven is certainly no Burt Bacharach! So there...

[PDG]

I am also not happy with trying to "match" composers as if it were some sort of wine tasting exercise. Indeed, for one to make such comments as Schubert being a match (or not) for Beethoven really does require some sort of value-judgement system, which nobody has ever (hopefully never) realised. Aesthetic value(s) cannot be tabulated in Excel spreadsheet format.

On the whole, I agree (although what makes one wine vintage better than another?), but personally, I feel that Beethoven has to be top of the pile simply because of the humanity of his (sometimes unintended) message. Oh yes, and the music's fantastic, to boot...

[PDG]

...you will see that the "Isn't Beethoven a God?" crowd has certainly thinned (with certain notable exceptions) somewhat, and this is for the better. Not all of us are slavish Beethoven fans...

Yes, quite, he was no Burt Bacharach (is there an echo in here?)...

[Peter]

Ries knew a lot of people, he knew a lot of secrets. Many, though not all, of his letters survive. They are yet to be translated. To give one example of what has been lost, everyone in Vienna knew the Funeral March in the Eroica was written in memory of Marie Antoinette. Positively the entire city, to a man. I will let some bright person tell us why Vienna had an interest in the French queen so many years after her death, even though it's obvious. But Ries said, Napoleon. On the face of it, that was as insane as America naming a new warship the USS Joseph Stalin. Why did Ries say this? Was he really saying something else?

Well I'd agree you certainly use unorthodox methods! You make a claim that the whole of Vienna knew the Eroica's funeral march was in memory of Marie Antoinette without saying where you get that information from, how if that was the case it could have been lost to history or presenting the evidence! Aside from what Ries may or may not have said, you fail to take into account the fact that Beethoven wrote on the score of the Eroica "composta per festiggiare il souvenire d'un grand'Uomo" (composed to celebrate the memory of a great MAN).

[Droell]

Well I'd agree you certainly use unorthodox methods! You make a claim that the whole of Vienna knew the Eroica's funeral march was in memory of Marie Antoinette without saying where you get that information from, how if that was the case it could have been lost to history or presenting the evidence! Aside from what Ries may or may not have said, you fail to take into account the fact that Beethoven wrote on the score of the Eroica "composta per festiggiare il souvenire d'un grand'Uomo" (composed to celebrate the memory of a great MAN).

Peter, it's too damn simple. Find out who her father was.