Mental Imagery on Listening to Beethoven's Music

[Quijote]

Well, naturally, just having had an argument with my girlfriend, Clare (she's very lovely, but.....), I said that she should read Philip's post about Beethoven's subconscious agenda behind the Ninth Symphony, and she was not impressed! Harumph!

Please ask Clare to join this forum immediately so that we may communicate with her directly. Perhaps it would be more appropriate if we met up on the "Comedy Corner".

[PDG]

Well then PDG, you must tell us what (perverted!) mental imagery B's music conjures up for you. Oh, go on, do tell !

Actually, Phil, I regard the matter as highly personal. It's even more the case with Schubert, and you don't need to respond to this particular statement. Really, you don't....No.....Really....

[PDG]

Please ask Clare to join this forum immediately so that we may communicate with her directly.

She nearly did about seven long years ago, but the apparent intellectual debating which was going on was considered by her to be too daunting. HOWEVER, these days, maybe she should reconsider her position!
Actually, this gives me a reason to phone her......just let me crack open one more beer....

[Prometheus]

or another way of putting it, what is it in music, but in particular classical, that should conjour such scenes at all? Why? Is it a function of all art?

[Quijote]

Actually, Phil, I regard the matter as highly personal. It's even more the case with Schubert, and you don't need to respond to this particular statement. Really, you don't....No.....Really....

You've started, so I will finish : are you suggesting that Schubert's music contains explicit homo-erotic imagery that [continues in a similar vein for several hours...] ...

[PDG]

You've started, so I will finish : are you suggesting that Schubert's music contains explicit homo-erotic imagery that [continues in a similar vein for several hours...] ...

Not at all. Some of Schubert's music is macho beyond belief. He was shy but he loved the ladies, bless him...

[Quijote]

or another way of putting it, what is it in music, but in particular classical, that should conjour such scenes at all? Why? Is it a function of all art?

Hello Prometheus! Oh good, a threesome tonight then it seems (stop sniggering, PDG). Let us continue : I don't quite understand the question "all art", Prometheus. In the plastic arts, explicit imagery is a given, surely? But I think you mean to limit the issue to music, unless I am mistaken.

Why does music conjure "mental imagery"? I think that so-called 'absolute music' (music without supporting text, as opposed to programmatic music) does not set out to do so, but is an inevitable reaction on the part of the listener. I personally believe that the imagery we have is conditioned by our culture, by the history of music reception. Why is it that I am prone to 'mental imagery' for classical music, but less so (if at all) for Baroque, Renaissance, and even earlier periods of music? Why does so-called 'modern classical music' (à la Boulez, Cage et al) not engender (for me) similar imagery (though it can do so, on occasion)? And is not the imagery of which you speak intimately bound up with "emotion"?

[Quijote]

Not at all. Some of Schubert's music is macho beyond belief. He was shy but he loved the ladies, bless him...

Interesting. Did he love the ladies? I don't know for sure. "Machismo" in music? Sounds like a potential gender-based PhD thesis to me. I have heard people talk about this-or-that music being "virile". Virility in music? Another excellent topic for debate (I'm serious). It reminds me of another debate concerning literature : can one tell if a "text" is written by a woman or a man? Can one tell if music is written by a woman or a man? Or indeed if one can really hear if the pianist you are listennig to on CD is a man or a woman? And is it important?

[PDG]

Can one tell if music is written by a woman or a man? Or indeed if one can really hear if the pianist you are listennig to on CD is a man or a woman? And is it important?

To the first question, yes, I believe I can; to the second, no, I don't always believe I can; and to the third, yes, it is!...

[Prometheus]

poetry and literature too

[PDG]

...(stop sniggering, PDG).

He...he...he...he...he....
Oh, sorry....

[PDG]

poetry and literature too

I am a master of all trades...

[Quijote]

To the first question, yes, I believe I can; to the second, no, I don't always believe I can; and to the third, yes, it is!...

Fascinating, PDG (really). I must ask you then :

a) What, in a written text, allows you to identify the gender of the writer, in your view?

b) ... but not in a musical composition?

c) Why is it important?

This forum is getting better by the minute. But I must go to bed. Speak to you later, I hope.

[PDG]

Fascinating, PDG (really). I must ask you then :

a) What, in a written text, allows you to identify the gender of the writer, in your view?

b) ... but not in a musical composition?

c) Why is it important?

This forum is getting better by the minute. But I must go to bed. Speak to you later, I hope.

Hah! Got there before you - I'm asleep already........zzz........

PS. In your (b) I think you must mean, "but not in a musical performance"?
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........................... ........

[susanwen]

Keep taking the pills, Suzie-baby !! (Add icon thingie, you know, the smiley one). Which river, by the way? Don't say the Danube, please.
I think I will have to assign you a role in the next Act of my epic play - see "Comedy Corner" elsewhere on this forum.

I don't "visualize" a specific river, that's just the image that comes to my mind, but I suppose it must be the Rhine, in Beethoven's music. Personally, when I think of a river, I think Hudson or East River, but that's just my own background.