Beethoven's 9th: what scale is it in, if it is?

[Preston]

I was wondering what scale is the 9th in? I know there are scales like Dorian, Major, Lydian, etc., and was wondering if Beethoven's 9th was in a certain scale.

I imagine that he changes scales quite a lot but wondered which ones he uses.

Thanks,
Preston

[Peter]

You mean what key is it in. Baroque, Classical and Romantic works are either in a major or minor key or sometimes both. This means that they have a particular key as their central tonality, e.g C major or C minor. The 9th symphony is in D minor - now not all the movements of a work are in the same key but the tonality of the first movement is taken as the descriptive key for the whole work. In the case of the 9th symphony, the first two movements are in D minor, the 3rd in Bb major and the finale in D major! The first movement of Beethoven's C minor piano trio ends in C major. Also during the course of a movement it will change keys but always maintain its relation to the original key which remains central.

The modal scales you refer to are something different - they were the old system before major/minor tonality was used. There is a misconception that the old medieval Church modes (Gregorian) were the same as the ancient Greek (from which they take their names). Later composers such as Beethoven showed great interest in the old modes and would occasionally incorporate them into a work (String quartet Op.132).

[Preston]

First, thank you for the good reply Peter! I knew what key it was in. I guess that I don't understand, . I thought that when Beethoven composed he would right based on a specific scale or scales, for that key.

For instance, when I play guitar I may play a on some kind of a blues scale. Like an A Major Blues Scale. If you click on the link it will show you what I am talking about, but I know that you already know. I can only play certain notes on this scale, if I play a note that is not on this scale, then I get off track of the scale.

So what I was saying was that I would have thought that Beethoven composed depending on a certain type of scale, in his genius case, probably some ancient scales, I thought.

It seems that you are saying that they used major/minor tonality though instead of scales, am I right in saying this. I do not know what major/minor tonality is? And I don't understand why blues, jazz, rock, etc. sticks mainly to scales and Beethoven didn't?

Hope this makes sense. Thanks.

[Michael]

The Ninth Symphony, especially its opening movement, is absolutely amazing in its use of the major and minor modes. It's very opening is ambiguous - an A and an E - before D minor is established and quite a lot of the exposition centres around B flat.
Soon after the beginning of the development section, a quiet chord is sounded which has an indescribable effect - one of those "hair on the back of the neck" moments. Musicians will tell you that it is the first time the tonic major has been heard since the movement started, but you don't need to know that; it is the effect that matters.
Robert Simpson has stated that the this soft D major chord is a "preview" of the huge recapitulation and that the development section is one long rush towards D major. A lesser composer would have D-minored us to death at the end of the development but Beethoven's use of the major here is awe-inspiring. It is almost a relief when he returns to the minor and the rest of the recapitulation hovers restlessly between major and minor.
However, musical labels do not matter very much in the long run. I am convinced that any listener with a reasonably good pair of ears could enjoy and appreciate the first movement of the Ninth (or any other symphony) simply by listening over and over. Beethoven's music carries its own logic.
If you can read music and follow a score (which I cannot) it is an added bonus.

[Peter]

It seems that you are saying that they used major/minor tonality though instead of scales, am I right in saying this. I do not know what major/minor tonality is? And I don't understand why blues, jazz, rock, etc. sticks mainly to scales and Beethoven didn't?

Hope this makes sense. Thanks.

Major/minor tonality IS based on a system of scales but composers are not restricted to using just them. They can use any combinations within a particular scale pattern, but once they bring in a note foreign to the pattern or scale then the music is said to be modulating (changing key). This process of modulation occurs frequently and rarely does a piece remain within the confines of a particular key for long. Honestly it is a complex subject and you would do best to start off with some early grade theory books to help.
It is also a very important subject if you really want to get to understand western classical music thoroughly - otherwise statements such as Beethoven was 'a master of tonality' are meaningless.