What Are You Listening To Now?

[Quijote]

In light of the "What constitutes a work" debate raging elsewhere on this forum, I've been listening to Beethoven's "Tenth" symphony, or rather the reconstruction from sketches made by our dear Dr Barry Cooper. I dare to ask the question : is it a "work"? If so, why? If not, why not? Your answers please in less than 1000 words.

[Hofrat]

Philip;

Of course, Dr. Barry Cooper's "reconstruction" or "realization" of Beethoven's sketches of a tenth symphony is a work. It is a work by Dr. Barry Cooper according to his interpretation of Beethoven's sketches.

[Peter]

Elgar's piano quintet - the slow movement in particular is sublime.

[Moonscore]

I've kind of been on a dvd kick recently, so I watched the complete Beethoven sonatas by Barenboim. Spectacular performer if there ever was one. I also recently watched the movie "Chopin: desire for love". Garbage...But interesting garbage, nonetheless.

[Hofrat]

Franz Danzi (1763-1826):
4 flute concerti.

Joseph Martin Kraus (1756-1792):
Ballet music.

[Peter]

Debussy, Ravel and Frank 'cello sonatas - fine performances by Daniel Müller-Schott.

[PDG]

In light of the "What constitutes a work" debate raging elsewhere on this forum, I've been listening to Beethoven's "Tenth" symphony, or rather the reconstruction from sketches made by our dear Dr Barry Cooper. I dare to ask the question : is it a "work"? If so, why? If not, why not? Your answers please in less than 1000 words.

I vote that this is not a 'work'. The term 'work' to me in relation to classical music seems to suggest the result of great endeavour. What Cooper did was to inflate a pretty thin idea to begin with (the main theme being a rewrite of the early Op.13 sonata adagio), and flesh it out to 20 minutes for no good reason that I can fathom. Yawn.....

[Hofrat]

I vote that this is not a 'work'. The term 'work' to me in relation to classical music seems to suggest the result of great endeavour. What Cooper did was to inflate a pretty thin idea to begin with (the main theme being a rewrite of the early Op.13 sonata adagio), and flesh it out to 20 minutes for no good reason that I can fathom. Yawn.....

Dear PDG;

Did you take the time to listen to Dr. Cooper's explanation of his realization of Beethoven's 10th symphony that appears on the same CD that the London Symphony Orchestra recorded under Wyn Morris? If so, you would know that Dr. Cooper only used the thematic material found in the sketches. It is not Dr. Cooper "rewriting" the adagio cantabile of opus 13, rather it is Beethoven's rewriting as Dr. Cooper interpreted from the sketches.

Further, you will have to define "great endeavour" for us. Would Beethoven's composing a bagatella be considered a "great endeavour?" Would Sussmayr's completion of Mozart's Requiem be a "great endeavour?" How about Alfano's completion of Puccini's Turandot?

[PDG]

Dear PDG;

Did you take the time to listen to Dr. Cooper's explanation of his realization of Beethoven's 10th symphony that appears on the same CD that the London Symphony Orchestra recorded under Wyn Morris? If so, you would know that Dr. Cooper only used the thematic material found in the sketches. It is not Dr. Cooper "rewriting" the adagio cantabile of opus 13, rather it is Beethoven's rewriting as Dr. Cooper interpreted from the sketches.

Further, you will have to define "great endeavour" for us. Would Beethoven's composing a bagatella be considered a "great endeavour?" Would Sussmayr's completion of Mozart's Requiem be a "great endeavour?" How about Alfano's completion of Puccini's Turandot?

Hi Hofrat.

Well, for a start, I haven't listened to the thing for 20 years, but yes, I did then also listen to Cooper's self-awarded justification for this hotch-potch. It is not the Tenth Symphony at all, and we should not refer to it as such; in fact, this is only supposed to be a First Movement in any event.

Yes, I am aware that the thematic material is (mostly) Beethoven's, but Cooper keeps on fleshing it out to ridiculous proportions (a small theme followed by acres of 'filler'), as though the actual length of the 'work' itself justifies his project. And the overall feeling is one of some frustrated post-Romantic hack copyist, just trying to ingratiate himself to some high-brow, clique (and basically too-easily-impressed) crowd. Beethoven cannot be composed in the 20th Century! Even Cooper confesses that: "Of course, it's not as good as Beethoven would have done". Well, are you sure?!

There are enormous differences to be found all over the place between Beethoven's initial sketches (or thoughts) for a work, and the finished article. Personally, I do not believe that he would have settled on a variation of his Pathetique adagio theme as the main opening gesture for his Tenth. It was a work in progress in its very early stages, with possibly years of gestation lying ahead.

By 'great endeavour', I mean 'from the heart'. Thus, yes, a bagatelle can be a work of great emotional endeavour. Fur Elise is derided by many, but it is actually a very beautiful piece of music. Whereas, on the other hand, what Mr Cooper was trying to do with his 20 minute spectacular, other than advancing his own career on the lecture circuit, is something about which I'm still confused.

[Hofrat]

By 'great endeavour', I mean 'from the heart'. Thus, yes, a bagatelle can be a work of great emotional endeavour. Fur Elise is derided by many, but it is actually a very beautiful piece of music. Whereas, on the other hand, what Mr Cooper was trying to do with his 20 minute spectacular, other than advancing his own career on the lecture circuit, is something about which I'm still confused.

Funny that PDG should mention "Fur Elise" whose sources are two fragmentary non-manuscript sketches which had to be "fixed" before their posthumous publication. I guess this "fleshing out" is alright, as is Diabelli's "finishing" the rondo "Rage over the lost Penny" (opus 129). I imagine that Alfano said "It ain't Puccini!!" or "Puccini" could do better!!" when he finished "Turandot."

[PDG]

Funny that PDG should mention "Fur Elise" whose sources are two fragmentary non-manuscript sketches which had to be "fixed" before their posthumous publication. I guess this "fleshing out" is alright, as is Diabelli's "finishing" the rondo "Rage over the lost Penny" (opus 129). I imagine that Alfano said "It ain't Puccini!!" or "Puccini" could do better!!" when he finished "Turandot."

With Fur Elise I meant the main melody, whatever the history of the published work. And surely, just because it was published posthumously, doesn't mean it was incomplete as a composition, at least for its composer.

Please don't 'guess' or 'imagine' or assume anything because if you assume, then you make an 'ass out of u+me'.

I have no interest in Puccini.....

[Chris]

Had a nice surprise driving home from work yesterday and heard Beethoven's Contredanses for Orchestra, WoO 14 on the radio.

[Peter]

Funny that PDG should mention "Fur Elise" whose sources are two fragmentary non-manuscript sketches which had to be "fixed" before their posthumous publication. I guess this "fleshing out" is alright, as is Diabelli's "finishing" the rondo "Rage over the lost Penny" (opus 129). I imagine that Alfano said "It ain't Puccini!!" or "Puccini" could do better!!" when he finished "Turandot."

I think a distinction has to be made between a completion of a work such as Turandot which was complete in every detail except for the last duet and a projected 10th symphony by Beethoven which was in a very early basic sketch state.


Interesting program on the BBC proms tonight with the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2008/what...8.shtml#prom49
Varèse Amériques
Rachmaninov Piano Concerto No.4
Copland Symphony No.3

[Chris]

This morning on the way to work I heard a string quartet from Haydn's Op. 3 set, which may have actually been by Romanus Hoffstetter, a Benedictine monk. Regardless of who actually composed it, I thought it was an excellent work and I thoroughly enjoyed it. My CD collection is seriously lacking in Haydn (or his imitators), so perhaps I will have to do something about that soon.

[Hofrat]

Ignaz Moscheles (1794-1870):

Overture to Schiller's "Maid of Orleans" opus 91.
Piano Concerto 6 in B-flat opus 90.
Symphony in C-major opus 81.