What Are You Listening To Now?

[Hofrat]

Again I think you might have made another sale Hofrat (any commission?!!) - I know we discussed these before and I've been toying for a while with getting them and maybe with Christmas coming up I'll put them on my wish list! As for the Tchaikovsky 'theft' are we sure that a) he knew the Raff symphony or b) it wasn't a popular folk tune? It's strange that no one criticises Beethoven for stealing from Mozart for the Eroica theme - but again I wonder if that wasn't coincidence?

No, Peter, no commissions. We just like the same music.

In the 3rd movement of Raff's 10th symphony "To Autumn" composed in 1879-1880, "a third gentle theme enters in an extraordinary anticipation of the slow movement of Tchaikovsky's 5th symphony." That is a quote from the musical analysis from the Raff site. Tchaikovsky, who wrote his 5th in 1888, used it as a first theme. Raff's music was quite popular in Europe during Raff's lifetime (1822-1882) and it seems that Tchaikovsky heard the Raff work and copped the theme.

As for the Mozart opera "Bastien und Bastienne," it was never published or performed in Mozart's or Beethoven's lifetime. So, Beethoven could not have stole it for the Eroica.

[Peter]

No, Peter, no commissions. We just like the same music.

In the 3rd movement of Raff's 10th symphony "To Autumn" composed in 1879-1880, "a third gentle theme enters in an extraordinary anticipation of the slow movement of Tchaikovsky's 5th symphony." That is a quote from the musical analysis from the Raff site. Tchaikovsky, who wrote his 5th in 1888, used it as a first theme. Raff's music was quite popular in Europe during Raff's lifetime (1822-1882) and it seems that Tchaikovsky heard the Raff work and copped the theme.

As for the Mozart opera "Bastien und Bastienne," it was never published or performed in Mozart's or Beethoven's lifetime. So, Beethoven could not have stole it for the Eroica.

Well I think we have to be careful about the words 'stole' and 'theft' - Tchaikovsky was quite capable of composing a beautiful melody so it may be that it had entered his subconcious and he had simply forgotten where it came from! I'm being generous of course. On the other hand composers frequently borrowed from others and then there are the striking similarities that occur by chance as in the Eroica. From other threads here such as the Clement, it is increasingly obvious that Beethoven himself was very much influenced by other composers, taking their works as models for his own.

Listening to some of the Schubert early piano sonatas today - very lovely and I particularly liked the Ab D.557.

[Hofrat]

Peter;

In a forward by Dr. Avrohom Leichtling that appeared in the Musikproduktion Jurgen Hoflich, Leichtling writes about the disputed theme: "It is here that Raff’s most famous tune is now heard. This melody is world renowned because it appears, albeit in more elaborate and extended guise, as the principal theme of the Andante cantabile movement of Tchaikovsky’s fifth symphony (written in 1888 – six years after Raff’s death)! Raff’s “version” of it, although cooler, allows the movement to reach its only sustained forte tutti. As in the first movement, though, this lasts barely four measures before it quickly cools down. A second tutti is approached, but the arrival points are chopped off in dramatic diminished sevenths with pianissimo horn and bassoon echoes – the very essence of Tchaikovskian pathos. (Tchaikovsky - measure 8, horn, et seq. to Raff - measure 72, bassoon, oboe, et seq.)"

[Preston]

As for the Mozart opera "Bastien und Bastienne," it was never published or performed in Mozart's or Beethoven's lifetime. So, Beethoven could not have stole it for the Eroica.

Could Beethoven have heard the theme another way- maybe through a pianists playing Bastein und Bastienne? I mean it is possible. Either way Beethoven works the theme in an entirely different way!

After Peter's thread on Kissin I looked him up and am have been listening to Kissin play Pictures at an Exhibition. I have heard the orchestrated version of this arranged by Ravel but never just on the piano.

Also, listening to Vesperae solennes de confessore, K. 339, by Mozart. Does anyone have any information on this piece? Like what the name means, etc?

[Hofrat]

Preston;

The manuscript score for "Bastien and Bastienne" lanqushed in an archive about 100 years. I seriously doubt if Beethoven saw the MS or an arrangement of it.

[Preston]

Thank you for the information Hofrat.

[Peter]

Peter;

In a forward by Dr. Avrohom Leichtling that appeared in the Musikproduktion Jurgen Hoflich, Leichtling writes about the disputed theme: "It is here that Raff’s most famous tune is now heard. This melody is world renowned because it appears, albeit in more elaborate and extended guise, as the principal theme of the Andante cantabile movement of Tchaikovsky’s fifth symphony (written in 1888 – six years after Raff’s death)! Raff’s “version” of it, although cooler, allows the movement to reach its only sustained forte tutti. As in the first movement, though, this lasts barely four measures before it quickly cools down. A second tutti is approached, but the arrival points are chopped off in dramatic diminished sevenths with pianissimo horn and bassoon echoes – the very essence of Tchaikovskian pathos. (Tchaikovsky - measure 8, horn, et seq. to Raff - measure 72, bassoon, oboe, et seq.)"

Yes but I still wonder if this was a conscious borrowing - Beethoven for example thought his Op.35 theme (used in the finale of the Eroica) was original but the theme and siginificant details of the work are based on C.P.E. Bach's Rondo in E flat, W. 61/1 (1787). There are plenty of examples of composer borrowings but they are not necessarily 'theft'! This website gives many examples http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/borrowing/index.html

[Hofrat]

Peter;

You raise a good point. A composer could pick up a tune he hears from a waiter whistling in a cafe or a housekeeper humming in the kitchen--as well as a theme of another composer--and evolve them into their compositions. Sometimes a composer "uses" a theme of another composer as a token of honor. Beethoven honored Handel in the overture "Consecration of House;" Brahms honored Joachim in the Double Concerto by using a theme by Viotti.

You are right that I should have been more careful with the language I used. I should have said that Tchaikovsky "used" a Raff theme rather than Tchaikovsky "copped" a Raff theme. BTW, Tchaikovsky toured Europe extensively during the period of 1880-1888 (the interval between Raff's 10th symphony and Tchaikovsky's 5th). As I mentioned, Raff was very popular in Germany and his symphonies were performed often during his lifetime. Tchaikovsky most probably heard a performance of the Raff work and later "used" the theme as a token of honor.

[Peter]

Peter;

You raise a good point. A composer could pick up a tune he hears from a waiter whistling in a cafe or a housekeeper humming in the kitchen--as well as a theme of another composer--and evolve them into their compositions. Sometimes a composer "uses" a theme of another composer as a token of honor. Beethoven honored Handel in the overture "Consecration of House;" Brahms honored Joachim in the Double Concerto by using a theme by Viotti.

You are right that I should have been more careful with the language I used. I should have said that Tchaikovsky "used" a Raff theme rather than Tchaikovsky "copped" a Raff theme. BTW, Tchaikovsky toured Europe extensively during the period of 1880-1888 (the interval between Raff's 10th symphony and Tchaikovsky's 5th). As I mentioned, Raff was very popular in Germany and his symphonies were performed often during his lifetime. Tchaikovsky most probably heard a performance of the Raff work and later "used" the theme as a token of honor.

Yes I think at some point Tchaikovsky probably heard the Raff symphony and he may well have thought that melody worthy of development in his own 5th or else he may simply have forgotten its origins as he worked what he thought an original idea, we can't be certain - but one thing I am certain of is that he didn't simply copy it and pass it off as his own - he was quite capable of writing his own melodies and Raff was far too popular a composer at the time! I'll check my Tchaikovsky letters and diaries to see if there are any Raff references.

We did have another thread on similar issues referring to Beethoven and that would be an interesting discussion as he himself used plenty of models for his works.

[Sorrano]

I've been listening to some early Mozart Symphonies and will be ordering the Raff this evening. Looking forwards to it!

[Sorrano]

It might be a week or two before I get to hear the Raff, but they are on order (the "Seasons" Symphonies, or as P.D.Q. Bach might have rendered that, the "Seasonings").

[Megan]

Barber, Samuel
Violin Concerto (Op.14)

[Sorrano]

This morning I've been listening to the first three Beethoven Cello Sonatas (Lynn Harrell and Vladimir Ashkenazy). I found the first two to be very much alike in terms of how they are constructed. All three are very enjoyable!

Megan, how was the Barber Concerto? I've liked about everything I've heard from Barber, but unfortunately I haven't heard much at all.

[Peter]

This morning I've been listening to the first three Beethoven Cello Sonatas (Lynn Harrell and Vladimir Ashkenazy). I found the first two to be very much alike in terms of how they are constructed. All three are very enjoyable!

Megan, how was the Barber Concerto? I've liked about everything I've heard from Barber, but unfortunately I haven't heard much at all.

Yes my favourite is Op.69 - in my mind though I sometimes mix up the theme of the finale with the Franck Violin/cello sonata! I have them played beautifully by Daniel Schott-Mueller.

[Peter]

Peter;

As I mentioned, Raff was very popular in Germany and his symphonies were performed often during his lifetime. Tchaikovsky most probably heard a performance of the Raff work and later "used" the theme as a token of honor.

Well I can't find a reference in the Tchaikovsky correspondence to Raff, but his name is in the index of the diaries but stupidly with no page reference so I'd have to read the whole book again - that will have to wait a while I think!

I think Tchaikovsky must have heard the Raff probably in Berlin and the theme lodged in his subconcious. He often used folk music but I'm not sure of deliberate quotations of other composers.