How well known was Beethoven's music outside Vienna?

[Peter]

Hofrat has raised this topic which I think is of great interest. Beethoven was I think surprisingly well known in some places - in the US for example, an 'overture', which some suggest was actually Beethoven's First or Second Symphony was played at a Charleston gathering in 1805 conducted by Jacob Eckhard. However the accepted first performance of a Beethoven symphony in the US was in the assembly room of Postlethwait's Tavern in Lexington Kentucky in 1817, a Bohemian emigre named Anthony Philip Heinrich led a performance of Beethoven's Symphony No. 1.

England was receptive to Beethoven's music, but it is a sign of the popularity of Italian opera that even Fidelio did not receive a London performance until 1832. France was less favourable after the fiasco of the Paris Eroica performance in 1811 with the 5th symphony not being performed until 1820, but surprisingly the piano music was more popular in Paris than Germany and from 1815 was actively encouraged at the conservatoire.

[Sorrano]

In getting back to Crusell, would he not have consorted with Eggert and maybe had some influence from Beethoven, at least second hand?

[Hofrat]

Beethoven received stipends from various noblemen which freed him from the drudgery of having to make concert tours. This was a mixed blessing. Sure, he could concentrate on his composing, but he could not make a name for himself or promote his artistry outside of Vienna. As I wrote before, he never set foot in Paris, Rome, or London being perhaps the only composer of his stature to do so at that time.

As for England, I am not so sure that he was received so well. In April 1807, Clementi contracted with Beethoven to receive the publishing and distribution rights for the following works:
1. the opus 59 quartets.
2. the 4th symphony.
3. the overture Coriolan.
4. the 4th piano concerto.
5. the violin concerto.
6. the violin concerto arranged for the piano.

When were these works first performed in England? I know for a fact that the violin concerto was first performed in London in April 1832 and a critic thought it was "written by a third- or fourth-rate composer."

[Hofrat]

In getting back to Crusell, would he not have consorted with Eggert and maybe had some influence from Beethoven, at least second hand?

This thread is not the place for a discussion on Crusell and Eggert.

[Peter]

As for England, I am not so sure that he was received so well. In April 1807, Clementi contracted with Beethoven to receive the publishing and distribution rights for the following works:
1. the opus 59 quartets.
2. the 4th symphony.
3. the overture Coriolan.
4. the 4th piano concerto.
5. the violin concerto.
6. the violin concerto arranged for the piano.

When were these works first performed in England? I know for a fact that the violin concerto was first performed in London in April 1832 and a critic thought it was "written by a third- or fourth-rate composer."

Well the Violin concerto only received a couple of performances even in Vienna during Beethoven's lifetime and it wasn't performed with any frequency anywhere for another 50 years! I think Beethoven's reception in England must have been good - as far as I'm aware most of the symphonies were performed in his lifetime in London - he was of course even commissioned by the Philharmonic society to write the 9th which was performed in 1825. He also had Ries, Clementi, Neate promoting him.

It would be interesting to compare performances in European cities at the time for frequency of Beethoven orchestral works, but I'd be surprised if Vienna faired any better. Beethoven was quite right when he complained of being out of fashion!

[Hofrat]

There is always a question of the availability of printed scores and parts. Take his 5th symphony. During Beethoven's life and even after his death, performances were given from manuscript orchestral material under his supervision, revised by him in several stages. If that is what they worked with in Vienna, what did they work with in the rest of Europe??

Take the 4th symphony. In Germany, printed parts of this symphony appeared in 1809 but a full printed score did not appear until 1821. The first complete score of "Fidelio" printed in Germany was in 1847 (published as opus 88 but that is another story).

Just how available were the parts and scores??

[Quijote]

An interesting thread.

Peter, you should specify the scope of your original question (how well known was B's music outside Vienna). Are you asking about the reception of his music during his lifetime or after (and if after, how long after)?

[Sorrano]

This thread is not the place for a discussion on Crusell and Eggert.

You misunderstand. I am looking for a Beethoven link to Crusell through Eggert. From what you've said I gather there are none.

[Preston]

Thayer's book inclines, he was very very well thought of in London, in his late period, I don't know about early and middle periods. The reasons I say this about Beethoven being very well thought of is because I think, not entirely sure though, Thayer, says something about how if Beethoven came to London he would have had enough money for the rest of his life. I read this either in the year 1819 or 1820. Also, a lot of people (conductors, friends, publishers, musicians, fans, etc.) there, really wanted Beethoven to come. They would write him long letters asking Beethoven to come to London, and Beethoven would always say that he planned on it, even giving dates when he was coming, but he never made it, possibly due to Karl.

Also Beethoven's Eroica, which was once called crap by a conductor, possibly the conductor of The London Philharmonic Society, now called it the greatest symphony he has ever heard. Apparently the Eroica was very impressive in London, in Beethoven's later years. Although, some of Beethoven's overtures and other music weren't highly accepted in London because they didn't see how the man who could write the Eroica, write works like the overtures and other music. Beethoven would write in letters to his pupils in London about how, the overtures and other music, received high acceptance in Vienna.

[Peter]

An interesting thread.

Peter, you should specify the scope of your original question (how well known was B's music outside Vienna). Are you asking about the reception of his music during his lifetime or after (and if after, how long after)?

Yes Philip but that would have made the thread title too long! Hofrat raised the issue in another thread and he was referring to performance during Beethoven's lifetime.

[Hofrat]

I might be digressing from the scope of this thread, but I came across something interesting. In 1910-1911, the New York Philharmonic Orchestra polled its audiences and asked for their favorite classical works. The following are the top three preferences:

1. Beethoven overture "Leonore" number 3.
2. Liszt "Les Preludes."
3. Raff symphony number 5 "Leonore" (the march).

[Sorrano]

Maybe a good place to start here is to figure out where Beethoven performed outside Vienna and to what extent that affected people in those areas?

[Hofrat]

Maybe a good place to start here is to figure out where Beethoven performed outside Vienna and to what extent that affected people in those areas?

You misunderstood. I am not asking about Beethoven performing outside of Vienna during his lifetime. I am asking how well was Beethoven's music known outside Vienna during his lifetime. One of the examples that I gave was that Rossini had only heard a few of Beethoven's quartets and piano works by 1822, and he had not heard any of Beethoven's symphonies until his trip to Vienna that same year. This seems to indicate that Beethoven was not well known in Italy.

[Sorrano]

You misunderstood. I am not asking about Beethoven performing outside of Vienna during his lifetime. I am asking how well was Beethoven's music known outside Vienna during his lifetime. One of the examples that I gave was that Rossini had only heard a few of Beethoven's quartets and piano works by 1822, and he had not heard any of Beethoven's symphonies until his trip to Vienna that same year. This seems to indicate that Beethoven was not well known in Italy.

Then allow me to rephrase the question, as it was not my intent to simply list where Beethoven had personally performed, but as your question regarding how well known Beethoven's music was outside Vienna it would be helpful to understand how any visits from Beethoven in other cities would have influenced the range of his music outside Vienna. That is one way (during his lifetime) that other cities would have come to a knowledge of his music. I think that limitations to Beethoven's own "tours" could have suppressed the spread of his "fame" outside of Vienna. Does that make sense to you?

[Hofrat]

Sorrano;

I wrote at the beginning of the thread that with the receipt of stipends from three noblemen, Beethoven did not have to make concert tours. This was a mixed blessing. True, he could remain in Vienna and develope his artistry, but this came at the cost isolating himself from the rest of Europe and certainly did not contribute to his reputation.

In early 1796, Beethoven traveled to Prague, Berlin, Dresden, and Leipzig. Later that year, he would travel to Pressburg and Budapest. In 1798, Beethoven would travel again to Prague. That was the extent of his concert tours, 3 modest excursions. Please note that he did not make it to Paris, London, or Rome.

Nobody has mentioned his deafness. A deaf music composer is certainly a curiosity and piques interest. How much did this "freak factor" contribute to the performance of his music outside of Vienna?