Beethoven and the violin

[Quijote]

Whether or not Beethoven's Cello Sonatas "stretch" the instrument they do stand on their own as great "works" of music. The 3rd, in particular, I found very delightful, very musical. On one hand it is nice to show off a little virtuosity, but then, virtuosity does not make up the music.

Inasmuch as this thread regards Beethoven's use of violin I will have to ask how the writing for violin differs (in their respective Sonatas) from the cello?

As a ‘cellist I can only agree with you. And of course, virtuosity for virtuosity’s sake makes for empty music. The Haydn ‘cello concertos are more “virtuosic” than the Beethoven piano and ‘cello sonatas (note my order of words), but they are still fine examples of ‘cello writing and Haydn shows us he knows exactly what a ‘cello (in his day) could do.

Perhaps others could respond to how they compare with the piano and violin sonatas (again, note the order of words).

[Quijote]

I think that you are all wrong with respect to the cello!! Who composed a sonata for the piano and cello before Beethoven? Haydn did not! Mozart did not? Other than the two concerti, what else did Haydn write for the cello? In truth, Beethoven was breaking new ground with his five sonatas and his various variation pieces for the piano and cello. He had no precedent before him to copy! And it is a matter of fact that his cello sonatas span more years than his violin sonatas!

And you all must remember that the cello was an instrument that was just emancipated from its menial function as a support instrument to become a solo instrument in the late 1700's. Concerti for the cello were generally written by the soloists then, and not by the leading composers at that time.

Hofrat asks us who composed a sonata for the piano and cello before Beethoven. Do you mean specifically “with piano” or other keyboard instrument? Choose carefully your words, before I answer.

You say : “It is a matter of fact that his piano with ‘cello sonatas span more years than his violin sonatas”.

I say : And?

You say : “[…] An instrument just emancipated from its menial function as a support instrument”.

I say : J S Bach (and others) would pull your ears for saying such a silly thing.

You employ the word “emancipated” : such a loaded term. Sounds like received opinion, to me.

[Quijote]

Perhaps the things I noted most about the Cello Sonatas is the lyrical treatment of the cello part. As what Hofrat said, with the recent emancipation this is a very interesting way to spotlight the instrument.

Did not the Baroque composers (Vivaldi and company) compose any works featuring the Cello as a solo instrument? At any rate, who wrote more expressively for the Cello before Beethoven Sonatas?

Hmm. I am sceptical about the term “emancipation”. Yes, many baroque composers featured the ‘cello as a solo instrument, even before they (the ‘cellos) broke free from the yoke of tyranny and formed a socialist collective in lower Saxony.

As to “lyrical” … Well, another adjective that needs to be carefully used. Later, perhaps, as I know you think I'm pedantic.

[Hofrat]

Philip;

I hope you noticed that I used the the proper nomenclature: sonata for piano and 'cello or sonata for piano and violin. I believe that I am consistent with that.

Melvin Berger writes in his "Guide to Sonatas:"

"While many of Beethoven's early [piano] sonatas were composed in the shadow of comparable works by Haydn or Mozart, Beethoven had no precedents for his piano-cello sonatas, since neither older composer essayed that particular combination. In part this can be attributed to the cello's rather late LIBERATION from the role of doubling the bass line of the keyboard instrument in the Baroque basso continuo composition style."

The emphasis is mine. I hope that "liberate" is less loaded than "emancipate." If not, we have the following: free, loosen, unbind, manumit, release, unchain, unfetter, unshackle, discharge, and enfranchise. By the way, the above source is not the only one I have with regard to the cello's "deliverance" from the drudgery of basso continuo.

As to my question, answer it any way you please. I would not want to use "loaded" terminology.

[Quijote]

Philip;

I hope you noticed that I used the the proper nomenclature: sonata for piano and 'cello or sonata for piano and violin. I believe that I am consistent with that.

Melvin Berger writes in his "Guide to Sonatas:"

"While many of Beethoven's early [piano] sonatas were composed in the shadow of comparable works by Haydn or Mozart, Beethoven had no precedents for his piano-cello sonatas, since neither older composer essayed that particular combination. In part this can be attributed to the cello's rather late LIBERATION from the role of doubling the bass line of the keyboard instrument in the Baroque basso continuo composition style."

The emphasis is mine. I hope that "liberate" is less loaded than "emancipate." If not, we have the following: free, loosen, unbind, manumit, release, unchain, unfetter, unshackle, discharge, and enfranchise. By the way, the above source is not the only one I have with regard to the cello's "deliverance" from the drudgery of basso continuo.

As to my question, answer it any way you please. I would not want to use "loaded" terminology.

Well, Hofrat, let us examine your offering more closely :

We note your use of the proper nomenclature. You haven’t explained why this may be significant, why we prefer the term “sonata for piano and ‘cello” and not vice-versa.

Melvin Berger : can’t say I have ever heard of this person. Is it the same author who wrote Do Whales Have Belly Buttons? Questions and Answers about Whales and Dolphins, illustrated by Higgins Bond, Scholastic (New York, NY), 1999?

Whoever Mr Berger may be, simply quoting from sources without critical assessment is not good enough. First however, we must ascertain if Mr Berger (and hence you) really means that there were no precedents in terms of “piano” and ‘cello; for as you very well know, there are numerous examples of keyboard and ‘cello sonatas by a whole host of composers before Beethoven. Your source is equally dubious when we look at the ‘cello parts in Haydn and Mozart string quartets. These are hardly “enslaved” parts for the instrument.

What is true is that the ‘cello’s function in much baroque (orchestral / ensemble) music was to provide the bass line, or even to reinforce the keyboard’s “left hand”, so to speak. This is hardly earth-shattering news. This did not preclude the “fact” that many composers also chose to write works that featured the ‘cello as a solo instrument. I could give you a long list, but I can’t be bothered right now.

What is curious, though, is how you happily use terminology that is not yours : “emancipation” from the role of doubling the keyboard bass line. I have played a lot of baroque music (solo and support) and I have never felt “trapped” in my role, so I wonder where the term “emancipation” comes from. As I said before, you are simply repeating a received opinion, and a dubious one at that.

We note also that you have a thesaurus (free, loosen, unbind etc.) ; this can only be a good thing. I would like to know what other sources you have that attest to the “drudgery” of basso continuo.

[Quijote]

Sorry, Cetto, I can not find that complete sonata for piano and cello in my Kochel Catalog (fifth edition). Does it appear in a later edition of the catalog or in the Anhang or where the cello part is ad. lib.?

Please advise.

You sound desperate.

Von Cornystuff : don't give him the information, let him sweat. Maybe he'll check with Mr Berger.

[Hofrat]

Harry Halbreich writes for the "Encyclopedia of Chamber Music" about the piano trio. The emphasis is mine:

"The piano trio must be considered an outgrowth of the baroque duo rather than the trio sonata, for the latter, despite its name, called for four instruments in all, two LEADING 'melodic' instruments, generally high pitched, SUPPORTED by a keyboard (harpsichord or chamber organ) and a LOW STRINGED instrument, to provide figured bass. Thus the duo sonata, such as exemplified by the well-known violin or flute works by Bach and Handel, appears to be the real ancestor of the piano trio. Both the keyboard and the cello were CONFINED to being MERE ACCOMPANIMENT. With the obsolescence of the figured bass, around the 1750's, situation became completely reversed, and the harpsichord, more and more frequently replaced by the new fortepiano, FREED at last from its MENIAL TASKS, very soon took the lead, and with a vengeance. From now on, the bowed instruments were RELEGATED to a PERFUNCTORY part, and the compositions, by composers such as Bach's sons or the 'Manheimers,' were entitled 'piano sonatas with the accompaniment of a violin and a cello,' which exactly what they were."

Some words are loaded. When I submitted my article on Eggert to the Swedish Music Journal, the editors jumped all over me when I described Stockholm as "provincial" and asked that I change the wording. I had just received from Naxos my Crusell CD where the liner notes described Stockholm as "back water." I really did not understand how "provincial" rubbed the Swedes the wrong way while "back water" did not.

[Quijote]

Harry Halbreich writes for the "Encyclopedia of Chamber Music" about the piano trio. The emphasis is mine:

"The piano trio must be considered an outgrowth of the baroque duo rather than the trio sonata, for the latter, despite its name, called for four instruments in all, two LEADING 'melodic' instruments, generally high pitched, SUPPORTED by a keyboard (harpsichord or chamber organ) and a LOW STRINGED instrument, to provide figured bass. Thus the duo sonata, such as exemplified by the well-known violin or flute works by Bach and Handel, appears to be the real ancestor of the piano trio. Both the keyboard and the cello were CONFINED to being MERE ACCOMPANIMENT. With the obsolescence of the figured bass, around the 1750's, situation became completely reversed, and the harpsichord, more and more frequently replaced by the new fortepiano, FREED at last from its MENIAL TASKS, very soon took the lead, and with a vengeance. From now on, the bowed instruments were RELEGATED to a PERFUNCTORY part, and the compositions, by composers such as Bach's sons or the 'Manheimers,' were entitled 'piano sonatas with the accompaniment of a violin and a cello,' which exactly what they were."

Another "key" source that you are happy to quote, then, Hofrat, without critical assessment : "confined", "mere accompaniment" (tut tut, what a slave!), "freed" (how and by whom? Were weapons involved?), "menial tasks" (who considers a key support role as 'menial' : read Quantz and CP Bach on the importance of competent basso continuo playing), "relegated" and "perfunctory", etc etc ad nauseam. The comments you gleefully quote are highly subjective and questionable; the sort of thing one finds on CD sleeve notes (or liner notes, as others say).

I'm sorry Hofrat, but simply quoting from various sources does not necessarily clarify what you are trying to say. There are many books on music, but not all are reliable.

[Hofrat]

Philip;

Well, line up your sources and refute what I found in various independent sources.

[Quijote]

Philip;

Well, line up your sources and refute what I found in various independent sources.

I don't need to "line up" any sources to refute the questionable opinions you have expressed. I simply maintain that you quote without critical assessment and content yourself with regurgitating received opinion. Read the Quantz and CPE Bach treatises that discuss basso continuo playing and its importance (as opposed to your "drudgery"), and then perhaps we can talk more intelligently.

[PDG]

...and content yourself with regurgitating received opinion.

Come on, guys! Cows regurgitate. However, we at the BRS like to think of ourselves as Green, and so we recycle. Oh yes...

[Quijote]

Come on, guys! Cows regurgitate. However, we at the BRS like to think of ourselves as Green, and so we recycle. Oh yes...

Not only cows. Cats regurgitate often. Are you a pussy lover too, PDG?

[PDG]

Yes...

[Quijote]

Yes...

I knew it !! Did you know 8 out of 10 cats prefer Cage?

[PDG]

I knew it !! Did you know 8 out of 10 cats prefer Cage?

It's a lie. Cats cannot live on emptiness with nil calories or inspiration!