Baroque Trills

[Chris]

Whenever trills are discussed, the focus is always on which note to start on. I think that is fairly clear, but what I never hear talked about is whether you are supposed to trill through the entire duration of the note or end early and let the principal note ring a little. I am curious about this especially in regards to Baroque music and Bach in particular, because looking at the famous table of ornaments pictured here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...naments750.jpg

It would seem that you are not supposed to trill for the entire duration of the note. But I have never had any teacher tell me about this.

Does anyone know the real story here?

[Peter]

There are different types of trill and it all depends on the context but the most fundamental thing about all these ornaments is that they should not interupt the rhythm of the piece and that they should sound natural and unobtrusive - remember they are always decorating the principal note, so I always have that in mind.

[Hofrat]

That list of grace notes is by no means inclusive. I note that it is taken from a German book, so the pralltriller (or upper mordent) is missing. Most of those grace notes are now obsolete and in modern editions would be written out in full.

[Chris]

There are different types of trill and it all depends on the context but the most fundamental thing about all these ornaments is that they should not interupt the rhythm of the piece and that they should sound natural and unobtrusive - remember they are always decorating the principal note, so I always have that in mind.

Bah, you music teachers! It always depends on the context with you My engineer's brain requires a more exact answer. Is there a good book or paper on Baroque ornamentation somewhere? Something that gets a little more in-depth?

That list of grace notes is by no means inclusive. I note that it is taken from a German book, so the pralltriller (or upper mordent) is missing. Most of those grace notes are now obsolete and in modern editions would be written out in full.

Not in the Henle editions, which I always prefer. I know that there are more, and that those symbols can mean different things in different periods of music. But it is the Baroque period I am concerned with here, and Bach's music in particular.

[Peter]

Bah, you music teachers! It always depends on the context with you My engineer's brain requires a more exact answer. Is there a good book or paper on Baroque ornamentation somewhere? Something that gets a little more in-depth?



Not in the Henle editions, which I always prefer. I know that there are more, and that those symbols can mean different things in different periods of music. But it is the Baroque period I am concerned with here, and Bach's music in particular.

There isn't a more exact answer and no two editions are exactly the same -the guiding principals I gave you are far more important than playing the exact number of notes! It is better (and perfectly acceptable in many circumstances) to leave the ornament out altogether rather than upset the rhythm or distort the musical line. If you want a book on baroque ornaments, then read Dolmetsch - you'll probably be even more confused!

[Chris]

There must be an exact answer. Or a more exact answer. Let me ask you this. Suppose you are playing Bach's C major Invention:

http://socrates.acadiau.ca/courses/m...293/inv1-1.gif

OK, see that first trill in the right hand? What do you, personally, do? Trill all the way through? Or hang on to the principal note a little at the end of the trill? Why? Neither choice interupts the rhythm of the piece, and both choices sound natural and unobtrusive.

Maybe the fact is that neither one is more correct and no one really cares how you play it. But judging from the table of ornaments that I posted before (and was actually included with the Inventions), you are supposed to hang on the principal note a little. So, is this how a Baroque trill should be played, unless there is a good reason not to? Or does it really not matter at all?

[Hofrat]

Trills on a keyboard instrument are often "to cheat" the instrument. The keyboard instruments at the time of Bach (and Beethoven for that matter) had fast decaying sound. These instruments could not play sustained notes well because the sound would fade away very rapidly. The trill afforded the musician a way "to cheat" the instrument by playing 2 alternating notes. So with a modern piano with its great sustaining power, you can trill less and ornate less.

[Peter]

There must be an exact answer. Or a more exact answer. Let me ask you this. Suppose you are playing Bach's C major Invention:

http://socrates.acadiau.ca/courses/m...293/inv1-1.gif

OK, see that first trill in the right hand? What do you, personally, do? Trill all the way through? Or hang on to the principal note a little at the end of the trill? Why? Neither choice interupts the rhythm of the piece, and both choices sound natural and unobtrusive.

Maybe the fact is that neither one is more correct and no one really cares how you play it. But judging from the table of ornaments that I posted before (and was actually included with the Inventions), you are supposed to hang on the principal note a little. So, is this how a Baroque trill should be played, unless there is a good reason not to? Or does it really not matter at all?

The rule is that trills continue through the full value of the note except the Prall-triller or half shake which is the case with the prelude in your example.

[Chris]

The notes in my Henle edition indicate that that sign, the version with three squiggles, and the tr were all used interchangeably by Bach.

I found this page:

http://www.iment.com/maida/familytre...chnotation.htm

which contains an an excerpt from J.S. Bach, by Willard A. Palmer. This seems to agree with the notes in the Henle, but also indicates that any of them can stand for a "short" or "long" trill. It doesn't really say how you are supposed to know which one of them to use, however, so I still know...pretty much nothing.

I also found a book called Interpreting Bach at the Keyboard by Paul Badura-Skoda (which you can read some of at Google books), that seems to agree with this, and that whether to use a short or long trill depends on the context. Naturally, it doesn't say what that context might be.

The only thing I can see is the implication that the long trill (held all the way out) is more for longer notes.

But...I don't know. Music is hard even when you're not actually playing an instrument

[Peter]

The notes in my Henle edition indicate that that sign, the version with three squiggles, and the tr were all used interchangeably by Bach.

I found this page:

http://www.iment.com/maida/familytre...chnotation.htm

which contains an an excerpt from J.S. Bach, by Willard A. Palmer. This seems to agree with the notes in the Henle, but also indicates that any of them can stand for a "short" or "long" trill. It doesn't really say how you are supposed to know which one of them to use, however, so I still know...pretty much nothing.

I also found a book called Interpreting Bach at the Keyboard by Paul Badura-Skoda (which you can read some of at Google books), that seems to agree with this, and that whether to use a short or long trill depends on the context. Naturally, it doesn't say what that context might be.

The only thing I can see is the implication that the long trill (held all the way out) is more for longer notes.

But...I don't know. Music is hard even when you're not actually playing an instrument

Which brings us back to my original point! There isn't a definitive answer other than context and musical sense. I remember being taught to imagine a good whistler who would naturally ornament a note without interupting the melodic line or rhythm - this is the most important element of all and if you aim for that you will get nearer the intention than reading any academic treatise.

We had a similar debate a while back on Baroque dynamics and I pointed out then that much is open to the interpreter (based on good musical sense) and that the notation used was not always sufficient to convey the exact intention.

[Chris]

I am not trying to be overly technical at the expense of making "musical sense", as you put it, but in many cases it seems that both choices make the exact same amout of musical sense. So which one to pick? And in any case, my musical sensibilities are surely different from people's in Bach's time. I think this is why I always resisted playing Baroque music - too many things are unclear.

At least I seem to have solved the trill dilema, however.

[Peter]

I am not trying to be overly technical at the expense of making "musical sense", as you put it, but in many cases it seems that both choices make the exact same amout of musical sense. So which one to pick? And in any case, my musical sensibilities are surely different from people's in Bach's time. I think this is why I always resisted playing Baroque music - too many things are unclear.

At least I seem to have solved the trill dilema, however.

No I wasn't suggesting it was at the expense of musical sense, only that that should be the over-riding factor, simply because it is such a grey area. Obviously it is important to have knowledge of baroque practices as far as is possible and then I think listen to good recordings - for example Arthur Grimaux playing the solo partitas.

[Chris]

...for example Arthur Grimaux playing the solo partitas.

He is one of my favorite violinists, actually, but I have never heard him play any Bach. I will have to check it out.