Beethoven's Ritterballet...

[Quijote]

Well, out of 600+ works, you say one is poor (generally accepted) and another is 'borderline'. There are sound reasons for the two works you mention being 'sub-standard', but what of the many hundreds of other works?

I remain astonished by Beethoven's creative output between Opus 53 (Waldstein Sonata) and Opus 74 (Harp Quartet). My god, look at this almost endless stream of masterpieces!

Ok, point taken. But there are many for whom the "Beethoven sound" (if I may term it so) is repulsive. Cage is one; Stockhausen another. I believe Debussy had little time for B's music, too. So there is precedent, here. Some listeners find Beethoven "bombastic", especially the so-called heroic style. I think PDG that you do not seriously expect everyone to share your enthusiasm for LvB. Surely this is as it should be?

[PDG]

Ok, point taken. But there are many for whom the "Beethoven sound" (if I may term it so) is repulsive. Cage is one; Stockhausen another. I believe Debussy had little time for B's music, too. So there is precedent, here. Some listeners find Beethoven "bombastic", especially the so-called heroic style. I think PDG that you do not seriously expect everyone to share your enthusiasm for LvB. Surely this is as it should be?

Whatever other people's views on Beethoven's music, he remains a great composer - arguably the greatest of all. It matters not that you qualify him alongside (or less than) the likes of Cage and Stockhausen (or Miss Emin). I believe that you are missing the point entirely about Beethoven. You say some listeners find him 'bombastic' - well, there's that word again. You know, you mocked Hofrat for quoting informed sources about bass accompaniment, and then throw in a derisory ad-lib yourself. Come on, man, you're better than that.
No, I 'do not seriously expect everyone to share my enthusiasm, etc...', but I never said I did. Get a grip, Phil.

[Quijote]

Whatever other people's views on Beethoven's music, he remains a great composer - arguably the greatest of all. It matters not that you qualify him alongside (or less than) the likes of Cage and Stockhausen (or Miss Emin). I believe that you are missing the point entirely about Beethoven. You say some listeners find him 'bombastic' - well, there's that word again. You know, you mocked Hofrat for quoting informed sources about bass accompaniment, and then throw in a derisory ad-lib yourself. Come on, man, you're better than that.
No, I 'do not seriously expect everyone to share my enthusiasm, etc...', but I never said I did. Get a grip, Phil. Put the wine bottle down...

I don't qualify him alongside any other composer at all. I merely stated what Cage and others have said, and I certainly don't feel that I am missing the point about Beethoven; my admiration of Beethoven is a given. Yes, some listeners find B to be bombastic. I never said I share this opinion. If I mock Hofrat, it is simply because I am critical of his received opinions, and question his reliance on dubious sources. Hence my ad-libs about emancipated 'cellos forming a socialist-anarchist collective in Lower Saxony (or wherever).

You don't expect everyone to share your enthusiasm for LvB, but are at pains to express your bafflement. My grip is sure and firm, and the bottle is nearly empty.

[PDG]

You don't expect everyone to share your enthusiasm for LvB, but are at pains to express your bafflement. My grip is sure and firm, and the bottle is nearly empty.

I'm neither in pain nor baffled. No problem. I'm sure there's another chilled vintage in the fridge...

[Quijote]

I'm neither in pain nor baffled. No problem. I'm sure there's another chilled vintage in the fridge...

Just opening it now. Want a glass? See the "Comedy Corner" thread that I have just started (assuming that Peter et al accept to let it run ...).

[Peter]

I don't qualify him alongside any other composer at all. I merely stated what Cage and others have said, and I certainly don't feel that I am missing the point about Beethoven; my admiration of Beethoven is a given. Yes, some listeners find B to be bombastic. I never said I share this opinion. If I mock Hofrat, it is simply because I am critical of his received opinions, and question his reliance on dubious sources. Hence my ad-libs about emancipated 'cellos forming a socialist-anarchist collective in Lower Saxony (or wherever).

You don't expect everyone to share your enthusiasm for LvB, but are at pains to express your bafflement. My grip is sure and firm, and the bottle is nearly empty.

If I may say your remarks about Hofrat are a little patronising, especially when you state that you yourself were only repeating 'received opinions' from Cage and others! Yes a thread on Beethoven and spirituality would be welcome - ball is in your court!

[Quijote]

If I may say your remarks about Hofrat are a little patronising, especially when you state that you yourself were only repeating 'received opinions' from Cage and others! Yes a thread on Beethoven and spirituality would be welcome - ball is in your court!

It is one thing to repeat (as categoric fact) that 'cellos were "emancipated" from the drudgery of basso continuo etc etc and another to state what Cage (and others) have actually said about Beethoven's music. If Cage said he didn't like the Beethoven sound, then he didn't like the Beethoven sound. If Hofrat simply repeats what he has read (e.g. 'cellos were liberated from the drudgery of basso continuo playing) and accepts its supposed veracity without critical assessment, then this is what is termed "received opinion".

[Peter]

If Cage said he didn't like the Beethoven sound, then he didn't like the Beethoven sound.

I'm surprised you allow such a straight forward opinion - if I'd said I didn't like the Cage sound you'd have demanded a full explanation and accused me of all sorts of things including reading the Daily Mail!

[Quijote]

I'm surprised you allow such a straight forward opinion - if I'd said I didn't like the Cage sound you'd have demanded a full explanation and accused me of all sorts of things including reading the Daily Mail!

I think you haven't understood what I mean by "received opinion", Peter. Of course, I am perplexed that Cage didn't like the 'Beethoven sound', and it would be interesting to see why he said that.

When I criticise Hofrat for repeating "received opinion" I use the term in perhaps a more academic context. Many writers repeat such things as "emacipation" of such or such an instrument, and the "drudgery" of basso continuo playing, as if axiomatic. Well, they are not self evident truths, and so should not be repeated without critical evaluation. Hofrat has simply read these comments in the sources he quotes from, evidently he accepts them as true, and repeats (rather, perpetuates) them. But he has not truly evaluated them, as in my view they are subjective and questionable.

A simple example : many people say one should drink red wine with red meat, and white wine with fish. I know people who choose their wine according to this principle. This is "received opinion" : so many people have said it and repeat it and do not for one moment ask "who says red wine should not be served with fish"? And what if I happen to like white wine with my roast beef, or red with my cod and chips? This is my point about repeating such phrases as "emancipation" and so on : it is not necessarily the case.

Received opinion is pernicious : I fear that Hofrat may now go on to use such terminology in other texts he may submit for CD sleeve notes; people will read these statements and take them as true, and so the myth will be propogated, and nobody will stop to ask : "Just a moment, what exactly does it mean 'to emancipate' an instrument from a certain rôle? Why employ this term instead of 'development'? Who has said that basso continuo playing is a form of drudgery?"

I, unlike Hofrat, will not repeat such statements because they are questionable. I will state, however (and this you can repeat), that the 'cello has four strings tuned C, G, D, and A.

[Peter]

I think you haven't understood what I mean by "received opinion", Peter. Of course, I am perplexed that Cage didn't like the 'Beethoven sound', and it would be interesting to see why he said that.

When I criticise Hofrat for repeating "received opinion" I use the term in perhaps a more academic context. Many writers repeat such things as "emacipation" of such or such an instrument, and the "drudgery" of basso continuo playing, as if axiomatic. Well, they are not self evident truths, and so should not be repeated without critical evaluation. Hofrat has simply read these comments in the sources he quotes from, evidently he accepts them as true, and repeats (rather, perpetuates) them. But he has not truly evaluated them, as in my view they are subjective and questionable.

A simple example : many people say one should drink red wine with red meat, and white wine with fish. I know people who choose their wine according to this principle. This is "received opinion" : so many people have said it and repeat it and do not for one moment ask "who says red wine should not be served with fish"? And what if I happen to like white wine with my roast beef, or red with my cod and chips? This is my point about repeating such phrases as "emancipation" and so on : it is not necessarily the case.

Received opinion is pernicious : I fear that Hofrat may now go on to use such terminology in other texts he may submit for CD sleeve notes; people will read these statements and take them as true, and so the myth will be propogated, and nobody will stop to ask : "Just a moment, what exactly does it mean 'to emancipate' an instrument from a certain rôle? Why employ this term instead of 'development'? Who has said that basso continuo playing is a form of drudgery?"

I, unlike Hofrat, will not repeat such statements because they are questionable. I will state, however (and this you can repeat), that the 'cello has four strings tuned C, G, D, and A.

Firstly, Cage is far from alone amongst composers who have professed a dislike of Beethoven - Cherubini, Tchaikovsky, Delius and Britten amongst them. And of course virtually all 19th century composers disliked each other's music! This is simply down to personal taste (or envy) and needs no further investigation - something simply either appeals or it does not.

Now received opinion - we are all 'guilty' of this to some extent. If I say Beethoven was of short stature, wore bifocals and was pock marked it is all from received opinion as there are no photographs and the paintings do not reveal these 'facts'.

Yes there are many Baroque works where the cello is used as soloist in Vivaldi concertos etc.. but basso continuo was a major feature of Baroque writing (and I agree we shouldn't describe that as a drudge!). I think the remarks concerning the cello are more relevant in the context of string quartet writing where Haydn does achieve an equality of part writing and does not simply use the cello as a harmonic bass.

[Quijote]

Firstly, Cage is far from alone amongst composers who have professed a dislike of Beethoven - Cherubini, Tchaikovsky, Delius and Britten amongst them. And of course virtually all 19th century composers disliked each other's music! This is simply down to personal taste (or envy) and needs no further investigation - something simply either appeals or it does not.

Yes.

Now received opinion - we are all 'guilty' of this to some extent. If I say Beethoven was of short stature, wore bifocals and was pock marked it is all from received opinion as there are no photographs and the paintings do not reveal these 'facts'.

Agreed to a point, but describing Beethoven as short, pockmarked and so on is not really about opinion. He was short, or he wasn't. The paintings don't reveal this, as you say, but there are many contemporaries of LvB who attest to this, and so here I think we can accept the description as probably accurate.

[Quijote]

Yes there are many Baroque works where the cello is used as soloist in Vivaldi concertos etc.. but basso continuo was a major feature of Baroque writing (and I agree we shouldn't describe that as a drudge!). I think the remarks concerning the cello are more relevant in the context of string quartet writing where Haydn does achieve an equality of part writing and does not simply use the cello as a harmonic bass.

Quite so, and this is more relevant than Hofrat perpetuating other people's opinions without critical evaluation. If I strike you as being too heavy handed with Hofrat it is because Hofrat is clearly an intelligent and informed musician who should know better (and I assure you I am not being ironic).

In fairness, I too am guilty of accepting "received opinion" in terms of the Immortal Beloved; whilst I accept Solomon's candidate as being Brentano, it is only now because of this forum that I begin to question this. Let me add quickly, I still favour Solomon's theory (with support from Tyson, Cooper and Kerman), but you have placed doubt in my mind. But still, if I were to write CD sleeve notes about this I would qualify my statement by saying something along the lines of "According to Solomon Antonie Brentano seems to fulfill all the typographical and chronological factors that point to her being the IB". I would not simply say "Brentano was the IB".

[Peter]

In fairness, I too am guilty of accepting "received opinion" in terms of the Immortal Beloved; whilst I accept Solomon's candidate as being Brentano, it is only now because of this forum that I begin to question this. Let me add quickly, I still favour Solomon's theory (with support from Tyson, Cooper and Kerman), but you have placed doubt in my mind. But still, if I were to write CD sleeve notes about this I would qualify my statement by saying something along the lines of "According to Solomon Antonie Brentano seems to fulfill all the typographical and chronological factors that point to her being the IB". I would not simply say "Brentano was the IB".

I think that is a fair position to take - it's ironic that the debate about received opinions should bring us to agreement because it was the very reason I questioned the Solomon theory and its blind acceptance by so many. It may be that he is right, I can't know for sure but there are enough issues to raise some serious questions about it, which few seem willing to do.

[Quijote]

I think I am always fair, but robust. You accused me once of "diverting" from the questions at hand; I hope I have disabused you of this opinion.

[PDG]

...Let me add quickly, I still favour Solomon's theory (with support from Tyson, Cooper and Kerman), but you have placed doubt in my mind. But still, if I were to write CD sleeve notes about this I would qualify my statement by saying something along the lines of "According to Solomon Antonie Brentano seems to fulfill all the typographical and chronological factors that point to her being the IB". I would not simply say "Brentano was the IB".

I keep on trying to tell you that the IB was his mum. But who listens? - NO ONE!

And can we please leave Mike Tyson and Henry Cooper out of this? - fisticuffs are for ruffians and scoundrels...