Beethoven's Ritterballet...

[Sorrano]

Perhaps, Preston, you meant "touched by the divine" as opposed to "touched by deity". I do hold as my own opinion that Beethoven's music WAS, indeed, touched by the divine (and I am a believer in God). That said, I agree, too, with Philip that there is much written in every age that deserves our ears. When I was younger I made the mistake of asking musicians who there favorite composer was. While I regard Beethoven;s music as high if not higher than others that I have heard do enjoy equally the music of various other ages and am always looking forwards to new experiences with music and styles I know not.

[Preston]

It would have made more sense to say divine, instead of deity. Although I will just say deeply spiritual, that makes the most sense to me.

As I said above, I do enjoy listening to some modern music, depends on the music.

[Quijote]

Hello Preston and Sorrano,
Your points are taken. Talking of the "divine", and other approaches to music that may (hopefully) reveal something deeper : the musicologist Warren Kirkendale has pointed out passages in the Missa Solemnis ("MS") that employ a musical symbolism that is largely forgotten today; indeed, that Beethoven (in the Missa) sought to perpetuate musical convention (and symbols) that date as far back as the Renaissance. An example would be certain flute passages in the "MS" (he refers to them as "fluttering") that in B's day would have easily been recognised as symbolic of angels or cherubs or whatever. I think it is true that for many audiences today such allusions may well be lost to their ears. This is what I'm trying to say about musicological approaches (including sexuality and gender issues), that they "throw light" on the music.

Now, it's very late here in Strasbourg, I'm tired and I'm beginning to ramble. Good night !

[Angel]

It was a work written by Beethoven, one of the greatest masters of music (if not the greatest), in his younger years around the age of 20, Beethoven was born in 1770. Did you know that Beethoven's father was a drunk, in his later years, and used to beat Beethoven and his brothers. Beethoven lived a very hard life with many challenging obstacles that he had to overcome. He had tinnitus (which can be a true terror in your ear), went deaf (and still wrote some of the greatest music ever), suffered unimaginable physical illnesses, and was very eccentric, etc. Did you know any of this? Did you know that Beethoven was an unimaginably great musician, who was truly touched by the deity, whose music was beyond anything most musicians can even begin to think of and whose music has lived on strong for over 200 years? I ask you this because you haven't said anything about Beethoven, you have congratulated Philip several times but that is about it.

your trying to give me his biography??!! Listen.. I've got myself into beethoven when I was 15 in a half and started playing the piano at the age of 18. Now soon going on 28, and still knows everything. So don't make me look like I DON'T KNOW anything.. LOL

[Angel]

I don't blame you for never having heard of it, Angel. It is one of Beethoven's most obscure pieces and you will usually find it only in complete editions. It's also only about ten minutes long so it hardly qualifies as a ballet.

I know someday I'll hear it. ;-) glad I'm not the only one.

[Preston]

your trying to give me his biography??!! Listen.. I've got myself into beethoven when I was 15 in a half and now soon going on 27. So don't make me look like I DON'T KNOW anything.. LOL

By no means was I trying to give you his biography, just wondering if you knew anything about Beethoven. No point in getting harsh. As I said before maybe my post was to bold, it was just that I didn't understand your postings.

I didn't know what the Ritterballet was until just recently either, that is why I asked.

[Quijote]

You see Preston and Sorrano, talking of deities and the divine leads me to talk about "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, which I consider to be a most effective atheist manifesto. Now, before Peter starts complaining that this has nothing to do with Beethoven, allow me to forestall him.

In this very readable book is a chapter called "Faith and the Sanctity of Human Life", where Dawkins seeks to debunk (christian) fundamentalist arguments against abortion. Pages 337 - 340 are devoted to "The Great Beethoven Fallacy".

Here is an extract :

'About the terminating of pregnancy, I want your opinion. The father was syphilitic, the mother tuberculous. Of the four children born, the first was blind, the second died, the third was deaf and dumb, the fourth was also tuberculous. What would you have done?'

'I would have terminated the pregnancy.'

'Then you would have murdered Beethoven.'

Dawkins then goes on to tear apart the weak logical thinking in this often quoted story. I won't spoil your fun by summarising the argument; suffice to say, the book is worth reading, as there are other references to Beethoven.

[Sorrano]

Aside from the Beethoven references why is the Dawkins book worth reading? I have no interest in atheist manifestos.

[Peter]

You see Preston and Sorrano, talking of deities and the divine leads me to talk about "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, which I consider to be a most effective atheist manifesto. Now, before Peter starts complaining that this has nothing to do with Beethoven, allow me to forestall him.

In this very readable book is a chapter called "Faith and the Sanctity of Human Life", where Dawkins seeks to debunk (christian) fundamentalist arguments against abortion. Pages 337 - 340 are devoted to "The Great Beethoven Fallacy".

Here is an extract :

'About the terminating of pregnancy, I want your opinion. The father was syphilitic, the mother tuberculous. Of the four children born, the first was blind, the second died, the third was deaf and dumb, the fourth was also tuberculous. What would you have done?'

'I would have terminated the pregnancy.'

'Then you would have murdered Beethoven.'

Dawkins then goes on to tear apart the weak logical thinking in this often quoted story. I won't spoil your fun by summarising the argument; suffice to say, the book is worth reading, as there are other references to Beethoven.

Your comments do have nothing to do with Beethoven - we are not here to discuss abortion or Dawkins' views on religion! I believe the thread is about the Ritterballet? Since no one wants to talk about it, I'll mention in passing that it was written 1790-1 and first performed 6 March 1791. Originally considered to be by Count Waldstein, the ballet has 8 numbers which include a March, War dance, Hunting song and Love song.

[Quijote]

Your comments do have nothing to do with Beethoven - we are not here to discuss abortion or Dawkins' views on religion! I believe the thread is about the Ritterballet? Since no one wants to talk about it, I'll mention in passing that it was written 1790-1 and first performed 6 March 1791. Originally considered to be by Count Waldstein, the ballet has 8 numbers which include a March, War dance, Hunting song and Love song.

I agree in part. Another reference to Beethoven in the Dawkin's book mentioned above alludes to our ability to appreciate a Beethoven quartet, in the same way our sense of "goodness" (morally speaking) does not depend on the existence of a God or otherwise. This reminds me of the drivel one often hears and reads about concerning "transcendent truths" in the music of Beethoven. I too have no interest whatsoever in religious arguments. However, Beethoven's spiritual position (I shudder to use the term) is a point of historical interest, as Solomon attempts to clarify in his book Late Beethoven : Music, Thought, Imagination, University of California Press, 2004.

So, time for another thread about Beethoven and spirituality, then?

[PDG]

Since no one wants to talk about it, I'll mention in passing that it was written 1790-1 and first performed 6 March 1791. Originally considered to be by Count Waldstein, the ballet has 8 numbers which include a March, War dance, Hunting song and Love song.

And a drinking song!

[PDG]

I agree in part. Another reference to Beethoven in the Dawkin's book mentioned above alludes to our ability to appreciate a Beethoven quartet, in the same way our sense of "goodness" (morally speaking) does not depend on the existence of a God or otherwise. This reminds me of the drivel one often hears and reads about concerning "transcendent truths" in the music of Beethoven. I too have no interest whatsoever in religious arguments. However, Beethoven's spiritual position (I shudder to use the term) is a point of historical interest, as Solomon attempts to clarify in his book Late Beethoven : Music, Thought, Imagination, University of California Press, 2004.

I ain't read that book, and have no plans so to do, so to speak, as it were...

Beethoven's music does transcend without being religious. I feel 'lifted' after hearing much of it, and therefore it transcends me. I believe Beethoven turned more towards God (whatever He may be) as he became more isolated from society, due to his deafness; this did not necessarily make him religious. If we could only but imagine his state of mind in his last years...

I am still astonished whenever someone tells me that Beethoven does 'nothing for them'.

[Quijote]

Apologies, IT problem.

[Quijote]

I ain't read that book, and have no plans so to do, so to speak, as it were...

Beethoven's music does transcend without being religious. I feel 'lifted' after hearing much of it, and therefore it transcends me. I believe Beethoven turned more towards God (whatever He may be) as he became more isolated from society, due to his deafness; this did not necessarily make him religious. If we could only but imagine his state of mind in his last years...

I am still astonished whenever someone tells me that Beethoven does 'nothing for them'.

Point 1, above : the book merits reading, PDG. It is most stimulating. Let's leave it there, as it is not strictly a purely Beethoven theme;

Point 2, above : hmmm ...

Point 3, above : I am not astonished at all. An example : B's "Battle Symphony" does nothing whatsoever for me, and the Triple Concerto is borderline.

[PDG]

Well, out of 600+ works, you say one is poor (generally accepted) and another is 'borderline'. There are sound reasons for the two works you mention being 'sub-standard', but what of the many hundreds of other works?

I remain astonished by Beethoven's creative output between Opus 53 (Waldstein Sonata) and Opus 74 (Harp Quartet). My god, look at this almost endless stream of masterpieces!