Karl van Beethoven...

[Peter]

So, this is the "page" you meant. You can hardly blame me for thinking the "page" was elsewhere.

Of course not, I didn't realise you were unaware that this forum is part of a bigger site with plenty of information on Beethoven!
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk

[Peter]

So, to continue, I will read this page with interest, and thank Peter for alerting this to me.

Before I do so, I must again say something. Read very carefully Peter's terminology : " (...] that I hope presents a balanced approach [...] (unless anyone happens to be a supporter of the Johanna hypothesis!)"

What is Peter's implication here? Will I be labelled "unbalanced" if I opt to consider the possibility? Am I to be allowed to think freely without any imposed a posteriori conditions?

Do I detect a certain paranoia? I only meant that I hope I have presented it in a fair way. I'm open to criticism and suggestions!

What I am asking, objectively and disinterestedly, is the possibility of a liaison between Beethoven and Johanna.
Peter professes greater faith in Beethoven than I. That strikes me as a little sanctimonious.

Well if you are going to ask such a thing objectively you need to provide some evidence, or else you might as well ask was Beethoven having an affair with his brother, his cook and the Archduke Rudolph (perhaps all at the same time?). This cynical line of thinking is all too common in our age - guilty unless proven innocent is the implication.

[Quijote]

Of course not, I didn't realise you were unaware that this forum is part of a bigger site with plenty of information on Beethoven!
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk

Yes, I was unaware. Hence my anecdote about Stockhausen above.

[Quijote]

Do I detect a certain paranoia? [...]

You should not detect paranoia on my part. I detected rather a whiff of demagogy on yours.

Well if you are going to ask such a thing objectively you need to provide some evidence, or else you might as well ask was Beethoven having an affair with his brother, his cook and the Archduke Rudolph (perhaps all at the same time?). This cynical line of thinking is all too common in our age - guilty unless proven innocent is the implication.

It is not cynical. It is disinterested, and born of simple curiosity.

[Quijote]

(...) However, to establish that Antonie met the requirement, Solomon mistranslated part of the source (...)

Just a few questions about the IB theme : are you saying that Solomon deliberately mistranslated some of the source material? Have other translators given us a more widely accepted version? And my last question for the moment, has Solomon replied to the criticisms concerning the "weak points" in his argument?

[Peter]

Just a few questions about the IB theme : are you saying that Solomon deliberately mistranslated some of the source material? Have other translators given us a more widely accepted version? And my last question for the moment, has Solomon replied to the criticisms concerning the "weak points" in his argument?

Yes. In order for him to be able to claim AB as the IB, he refuted Thayer's evidence of 1872. Thayer published the Brentano family statement obtained through the American consul - it clearly says that Beethoven was acquainted with Antonie’s father before the time of her permanent move to Vienna to care for him in 1809. In addition Thayer quotes an accompanying communication from the American consul, independent of the family statement, which read as follows: “I ascertained that Antonie’s father was a friend of Beethoven, that Beethoven was very often in the father’s house, and that the acquaintance of Antonie with Beethoven began before her marriage to Mr. Brentano [in 1798]. ”

Solomon claimed the consul had “misread” the statement, and made his own translation so as to read that Beethoven’s friendship with the father began after Antonie moved to Vienna to care for her father. Solomon’s translation of the Brentano family statement is wrong (compare it, for example, with Krehbiel’s translation of Thayer’s original German text ). Solomon then stated, in the face of his own mistranslation of the statement, that it was unlikely that Antonie’s father ever even knew Beethoven, because the father was on his deathbed when Antonie moved to Vienna.

Harry Goldschmidt wrote in 1977 that Antonie had probably known Beethoven fleetingly since childhood but that their friendship intensified after Antonie moved to Vienna to care for her dying father. Solomon does not mention Goldschmidt’s view.

Klaus Guenzel, in his 1993 book on the history of the Brentano family, wrote that Antonie had through her father known Beethoven from childhood. Solomon does not mention Guenzel.

Hans Tabarelli in a book of Viennese “historical miniatures” published in 1947, wrote that Beethoven got to know Antonie’s father shortly after Beethoven came to Vienna in 1792, and that the father had even given to Beethoven a key to his house’s watchtower. Solomon does not mention Tabarelli.

[Quijote]

Yes. In order for him to be able to claim AB as the IB, he refuted Thayer's evidence of 1872. Thayer published the Brentano family statement obtained through the American consul - it clearly says that Beethoven was acquainted with Antonie’s father before the time of her permanent move to Vienna to care for him in 1809. In addition Thayer quotes an accompanying communication from the American consul, independent of the family statement, which read as follows: “I ascertained that Antonie’s father was a friend of Beethoven, that Beethoven was very often in the father’s house, and that the acquaintance of Antonie with Beethoven began before her marriage to Mr. Brentano [in 1798]. ”

Solomon claimed the consul had “misread” the statement, and made his own translation so as to read that Beethoven’s friendship with the father began after Antonie moved to Vienna to care for her father. Solomon’s translation of the Brentano family statement is wrong (compare it, for example, with Krehbiel’s translation of Thayer’s original German text ). Solomon then stated, in the face of his own mistranslation of the statement, that it was unlikely that Antonie’s father ever even knew Beethoven, because the father was on his deathbed when Antonie moved to Vienna.

Harry Goldschmidt wrote in 1977 that Antonie had probably known Beethoven fleetingly since childhood but that their friendship intensified after Antonie moved to Vienna to care for her dying father. Solomon does not mention Goldschmidt’s view.

Klaus Guenzel, in his 1993 book on the history of the Brentano family, wrote that Antonie had through her father known Beethoven from childhood. Solomon does not mention Guenzel.

Hans Tabarelli in a book of Viennese “historical miniatures” published in 1947, wrote that Beethoven got to know Antonie’s father shortly after Beethoven came to Vienna in 1792, and that the father had even given to Beethoven a key to his house’s watchtower. Solomon does not mention Tabarelli.

If Solomon deliberately mistranslated parts of the source material (as you claim), then this is a very serious allegation indeed.

You then say that "Solomon’s translation of the Brentano family statement is wrong (compare it, for example, with Krehbiel’s translation of Thayer’s original German text)". I think comparing translations is a delicate matter, as sometimes it is a a question of "interpretation" (where certain nuances in the original language cannot clearly be rendered, and depend on the translator's appreciation of that nuance). Of course, to give a facile example, if I translate the French "blanc" as "black" it is clearly wrong. On the other hand, the French "mettre en evidence" can mean several things depending on the context, e.g. to highlight, to point out, to underline, to emphasise and so on. Unfortnately I cannot read German to any competent level, but I wonder who has said that Solomon's translation is definitively wrong (either thorough a deliberate attempt to mislead or through sheer incompetence, which would be a different matter altogether).

Has Solomon replied to these criticisms / allegations?

As a corollary, I took the time to consult the Grove Dictionary to see what is has to say about the IB. It is not appropriate here to quote the entire passage I read, but the authors write that AB (and I paraphrase from memory now) "satisfies the chronological and typographical criteria of the IB [...]". The authors of the article in Grove are Joseph Kerman and Alan Tyson, both leading Beethoven scholars of course. Not that this renders them immune to criticism, and - to acknowledge Peter's forensic approach - to question the status quo is a healthy attitude.

More needs to be said about this subject. In the meantime, it would be wise of us to get hold of the orginal German texts that Peter is referring to. I must consult some colleagues here in Strasbourg.

[Quijote]

You would appear to have these documents to hand, Peter. It would save me a considerable amount of time if you could furnish us with the full bibliographical references of the articles and books you refer to, namely :
Krehbiel, Goldschmidt, Guenzel and Tabarelli.

[Peter]

If Solomon deliberately mistranslated parts of the source material (as you claim), then this is a very serious allegation indeed.

I'm not going to make such allegations Philip as I have no intention of provoking a lawsuit! I merely say (along with many others) I think he is wrong and that Thayer was correct, but as to his responding I have no idea. There are many other arguments I could use to show his theory is wrong but as far as I am concerned Beethoven's relations with Franz Brentano are enough to prove Solomon wrong. Maybe if you wish to pursue this we should start another thread - perhaps 'Solomon's Immortal beloved'? I may be wrong but I believe Solomon's ideas have far more currency in the US than in Europe.

As to sources -

Harry Goldschmidt, Um die Unsterbliche Geliebte, (Leipzig: Rogner & Bernhard, 1977), 92-5.
Klaus Guenzel, Die Brentanos. Eine deutsche Familiengeschichte, (Munich: Artemis & Winkler: 1993), 83-6..
Hans Tabarelli, Altweiner Scherenscnitte, (Vienna: Paul Neff Verlag, 1947), 154.

[Quijote]

I'm not going to make such allegations Philip as I have no intention of provoking a lawsuit! I merely say (along with many others) I think he is wrong and that Thayer was correct, but as to his responding I have no idea. There are many other arguments I could use to show his theory is wrong but as far as I am concerned Beethoven's relations with Franz Brentano are enough to prove Solomon wrong. Maybe if you wish to pursue this we should start another thread - perhaps 'Solomon's Immortal beloved'? I may be wrong but I believe Solomon's ideas have far more currency in the US than in Europe.

As I have mentioned on two previous occasions, I have one outstanding "I'll get back to you" loose end to tie up before I leave the forum [forum members breathe collective sigh of relief]. However, this forum seems to exert a rather strong "gravitational pull" on me at the moment and I am unable to achieve "escape velocity" [forum members hold collective breath...], so I may well take up your suggestion of a new thread. I think 'Solomon's IB' would be an excellent title (forum emits collective gasp of dismay]. I'll also leave my 'Historical Ideology' for others to take up [forum members call out, collectively, "Oh no we won't!"]. Actually, I would have loved to, as I'm sure it would have caused a furore on a par with the Tracy Emin thread abandoned some months ago, but I just don't have the energy these days.

I must look into these articles etc before I comment further, but I do feel that your argument seems to take momentum from the "ethical" aspects of Beethoven's character first and foremost. Allow me a breather, if you will, and we'll see what transpires.

[Angel]

Philip - well said!!! :-)

[Quijote]

Philip - well said!!! :-)

Thank you. I am unable to comment further at the moment.

[Peter]

Thank you. I am unable to comment further at the moment.

Think of the devil and he appears - (only joking!) but I was only thinking of you this morning as I perused the rather quiet board. I look forward to your further comments, though hopefully within 2 years as it's hard to maintain the thread of your delightfully provocative and informed posts with such large gaps in between.

[Angel]

You are very welcome Philip! :-)

[Quijote]

Think of the devil and he appears - (only joking!) but I was only thinking of you this morning as I perused the rather quiet board. I look forward to your further comments, though hopefully within 2 years as it's hard to maintain the thread of your delightfully provocative and informed posts with such large gaps in between.

My apologies for the time lags, I've been very busy. I will get back to you about the IB / Solomon / intentional mistranslations once my German colleagues find the time to help me (who also have a lot of work, families and so on...).