Karl van Beethoven...

[Preston]

Lately, I have really been curious about Karl. I have seen him in three different movies; Copying Beethoven, Immortal Beloved, and Beethoven (BBC). In copying Beethoven he was portrayed as an infantile guy who went out to bars, did drugs, and kept claiming that he “owed money to very dangerous people”, while he was silently stealing money from Beethoven. In Immortal Beloved he was portrayed as a pretty decent guy, although Beethoven did call him “evil” and say that he was “like your mother”. In Beethoven BBC he was portrayed as a somewhat decent guy who apparently lied to his uncle about studying, while instead he went out to bars.

So what I am wondering is, what was Karl really like?

Preston

[Peter]

You have to consider the circumstances he was brought up in - losing his father aged 9, being taken from his mother and having her character poisoned by a well meaning but misguided and unsuitable guardian were sure to have a negative effect - it is no wonder it culminated in the tragic events of July 1826. One can hardly imagine the emotional torment he went through and what did he do that was so terrible? Occasionally got drunk and stayed out with friends - all things considered normal for teenagers these days!

He wasn't a bad person, but a victim of Beethoven's well-meaning paranoia and deserves our sympathy not the puritanical condemnation of Schindler that still permeates through to films such as Copying Beethoven.

[Preston]

He wasn't a bad person, but a victim of Beethoven's well-meaning paranoia and deserves our sympathy not the puritanical condemnation of Schindler that still permeates through to films such as Copying Beethoven.

Thank you for the reply Peter. So Schindler was not to fond of Karl? I haven't read Schindler's biography.

Best Regards,
Preston

[Quijote]

Thank you for the reply Peter. So Schindler was not to fond of Karl? I haven't read Schindler's biography.

Best Regards,
Preston

Good evening, Preston. I urge you to obtain a copy of Schindler's "Beethoven As I Knew Him" (1860 edition, Dover Publications, N.Y. 1996 [? please check date], readily available from Amazon. Even though it has many distortions and fabrications, it nevertheless offers a fascinating insight into Beethoven's life. I thoroughly recommend it to you.

[Preston]

Good evening, Preston. I urge you to obtain a copy of Schindler's "Beethoven As I Knew Him" (1860 edition, Dover Publications, N.Y. 1996 [? please check date], readily available from Amazon. Even though it has many distortions and fabrications, it nevertheless offers a fascinating insight into Beethoven's life. I thoroughly recommend it to you.

Thank you very much Philip. I do plan on getting it.

I am reading, very slowly, Thayer's Life of Beethoven. I have read the years 1815-1817. After reading those three chapters, I find Thayer's book to consist largely of letters with minor details about the composer's looks, thoughts, living quarters, etc. I do not know if the whole thing is like this. I do believe that Thayer did not want to write "Beethoven was a madman", so to say, but he could give a little more personal detail about the composer.

[Peter]

Thank you very much Philip. I do plan on getting it.

I am reading, very slowly, Thayer's Life of Beethoven. I have read the years 1815-1817. After reading those three chapters, I find Thayer's book to consist largely of letters with minor details about the composer's looks, thoughts, living quarters, etc. I do not know if the whole thing is like this. I do believe that Thayer did not want to write "Beethoven was a madman", so to say, but he could give a little more personal detail about the composer.

Thayer is very detailed and does not attempt the modern psychological approach of Solomon (thank goodness!) - it is an excellent general reference source rather than a cover to cover read. Philip recommends the Schindler but bare in mind that Schindler presents himself as having been on intimate terms with Beethoven for years (1814-27) when in fact their close association was only 1822-24 and the last few months of Beethoven's life.

[Joy]

Preston, Thayer's book on Beethoven is monumental in size and a great reference book but if you want to read about Beethoven and learn more about the life of this great man then I suggest 'The Universal Composer Beethoven: by Edmund Morris. It's a story of the life and not necessarily a survey of his works. It's intended for general readers who love Beethoven's music but do not want to get bogged down with musical theories and technicalities.

Also another interesting book would be 'Beethoven's Letters (with explanatory notes by Dr. A.C Kalischer)'. It gives you a feeling of what was inside this composer's mind while writing these fascinating letters.

[Preston]

Thank you Peter and Joy, very much.

Joy I have and have read most of Edmund Morris' book. I find it to not be that detailed, although it is not bad for the limited number of pages it has. Books written by man such as Schindler, Thayer, and Solomon, are much more appealing to me, because they are so detailed.

Peter, I must admit, from what I have read of Solomon's book, I do find a pretty good bit of it to be true. Solomon provides evidence to a lot of his theories. It is very detailed about the "personal" life of Beethoven. That is why I give it a thumbs up.

Best Regards Y'all,
Preston

[Peter]

Thank you Peter and Joy, very much.

Joy I have and have read most of Edmund Morris' book. I find it to not be that detailed, although it is not bad for the limited number of pages it has. Books written by man such as Schindler, Thayer, and Solomon, are much more appealing to me, because they are so detailed.

Peter, I must admit, from what I have read of Solomon's book, I do find a pretty good bit of it to be true. Solomon provides evidence to a lot of his theories. It is very detailed about the "personal" life of Beethoven. That is why I give it a thumbs up.

Best Regards Y'all,
Preston

Regarding Solomon, I find him highly dubious. You can make a case for anything and twist the evidence to fit. For example the Immortal beloved - yes you can point to dates and places and come up with Antonie Brentano, providing you ignore Beethoven's character and his own often stated comments on adultery. Beethoven's religious views are well known so is he likely to have described the affair as "truly founded in heaven - and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven" if it were adulterous?
Franz Brentano was a personal friend of Beethoven's and is it likely that he would have written to him in 1817 "I greatly miss your company and that of your wife and your dear children" if he had been having an affair with his wife 5 years earlier? Nor could Beethoven have been discussing the prospect of marriage with her since the Austrian government would not have granted a divorce - her husband had no criminal convictions, and their is no evidence of adultery in either case. Having children made it even more unlikely they would have received a divorce. Solomon chooses to ignore these facts.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Regarding Solomon, I find him highly dubious. You can make a case for anything and twist the evidence to fit. For example the Immortal beloved - yes you can point to dates and places and come up with Antonie Brentano, providing you ignore Beethoven's character and his own often stated comments on adultery.

I want to refer the forum to the following recent and highly interesting publication:

Rita Steblin: "Auf diese Art mit A geht alles zu Grunde.
"A New Look at Beethoven's Diary and the "Immortal Beloved"
in: Bonner Beethoven-Studien vol. 6

[Preston]

Peter, it has been a while since I read Solomon. I do remember telling myself while I was reading it that he did provide evidence, but you definitely may be right about his evidence being twisted. I am not disagreeing with you, by any means.

I do love Thayer's approach, it is very caring.

[Peter]

Peter, it has been a while since I read Solomon. I do remember telling myself while I was reading it that he did provide evidence, but you definitely may be right about his evidence being twisted. I am not disagreeing with you, by any means.

I do love Thayer's approach, it is very caring.

I'm highly skeptical of all psychologists! The Sterbas adopted this analytical approach to Beethoven and came up with the most bizarre theories that ranged from Beethoven seeing himself as a mother figure to karl and having sexual desires for his brother Johann - all backed up with so-called evidence selected from the letters and other sources. Thayer stuck to facts as much as was possible at that time.

[Megan]

I want to refer the forum to the following recent and highly interesting publication:

Rita Steblin: "Auf diese Art mit A geht alles zu Grunde.
"A New Look at Beethoven's Diary and the "Immortal Beloved"
in: Bonner Beethoven-Studien vol. 6

Cetto,
Thank you for drawing attention to the book, 'A new Look at Beethoven's Diary and the 'Immortal Beloved'.
It would also be nice to know if it is published in English.

[Preston]

I'm highly skeptical of all psychologists! The Sterbas adopted this analytical approach to Beethoven and came up with the most bizarre theories that ranged from Beethoven seeing himself as a mother figure to karl and having sexual desires for his brother Johann - all backed up with so-called evidence selected from the letters and other sources. Thayer stuck to facts as much as was possible at that time.

Peter, yes I hate how some people like to think of Beethoven as gay and not just that, a gay child molester!!! It is really disturbing what that these people think that. I remember Cetto mentioning the "new musicology", and I was blown away! These people have little to none, true understanding of Beethoven, in my opinion. It is like they overlook his divine spirituality, his good natured heart, etc., and only want to criticize him based on his eccentric behavior.

Please don't get me wrong, I think Thayer was a great man and am a true fan of his book. I feel that his approach and biography, to and on, Beethoven is the most serious yet. I like how Thayer didn't look down on Beethoven, act irrationally (like so many people do today) when writing about Beethoven, truly cared for him, gave him great respect, etc. Just in the chapters that I have read he seemed to have many letters, primarily concerning people and contacts in London, among other things. Thayer spent so much of his life digging up letters, sketchbooks, conversation books, information, etc., that I must give him great respect. I do imagine Thayer's biography to be the best yet. Sorry if I seemed irrational in my 3rd post about Thayer having to many letters, I think I kind of was, .

Preston

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Cetto,
Thank you for drawing attention to the book, 'A new Look at Beethoven's Diary and the 'Immortal Beloved'.
It would also be nice to know if it is published in English.

This is not a book, but a long article, and as the title shows, it is in English. To sum it up: the IB was Josephine von Brunsvick, the "A" in Beethoven's diary really meant "St" (Stackelberg) and Minona von Stackelberg was Beethoven's daughter.