Beethoven in the audience on Youtube?

[AlexOv]

I am writing this for the second time, but this time it is done in Word and then copasted. Why? The first time, despite being logged in, when I had finished typing it in the box provided and clicked on “Preview Post” I found that I was no longer logged in and I lost the lot. Very irritating. Had to redo the lot. Grrrr!

If I type it in Word first, at least I have a backup copy.

I just had a look at the Youtube clip of Furtwangler in 1942 and the last couple of minutes of the 9th before an audience which included a lot of Nazi top brass. I also had a read of the thread on this site about it and read the discussions. But none of you noticed something very interesting about one man in the audience. This should make you smile. Have a look at the picture gallery on this site first and note the Schimon portrait of 1819 and the drawing portrait of 1824.

Next go to the clip ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBT7W7uJ3ds) and freeze frame at the 46 second mark. Seem familiar…. Strikes me as very odd. Are you smiling yet? Should be, unless it is just my imagination and I really am nuts!

Someone in that earlier thread about this concert mentioned the impassive faces of the Nazis in the audience when you would have expected happier expressions of people uplifted spiritually at the climax of such a work.

It seems to me that the words to which they had just been listening (bear in mind that Schiller - and Goethe - were the German Shakespeares and much revered as cultural heroes) tell them that “Alle Menschen werden Bruder” (all men are brothers, for the only one of you who maybe doesn’t know), and I cannot help but recall that at this time in Germany, these Nazis were happily murdering and enslaving ten’s of thousands of people who they obviously did not feel were their brothers. They probably weren’t feeling too comfortable being reminded that their great heroes, Schiller and Beethoven, are telling them they are doing something wrong to humanity.

By the way, here is cause for joy. If you google for ""Beethoven youtube", at the top of the list is that beautiful clip by Floristan, done to the Cavatina from the Bflat quartet, and over 188,000 people have looked at it.... Wow!

[Preston]

It seems to me that a lot of people just don't realize or can't realize or overlook the greatness of men like Beethoven, Schiller, and Goethe... and prefer to admire people like rock bands, rap artist, etc., and feel that they get spiritual inspiration from them, instead of people like Beethoven! People that overlook these great men are surely missing out. It is sad times that we live in and have lived in.

I liked your post on autistic savants. I have listened to Leslie Lemke several times, it is miraculous that he can do what he does.

[Hofrat]

Music can be used for such diverse and even contrary purposes. Take Beethoven's "Fidelio," for instance. It was staged in the city of Graz, Germany in 1933 as a pro-Nazi demonstation. In the same city in 1945, it was staged to celebrate the fall of the Nazi regime. And again in 1956, Graz staged it to celebrate the city's post-war reconstruction.

Another point, the Nazis championed the music of Wagner. The Nazis were very superficial. They never sat down and studied the texts of his operas. Had they done so, they would have realized that in the end of all his operas, the super-heroes (e.g. the master race) are dead and absolute distruction is left in their wake. It is a wonder that the Nazis did not burn Wagner's music along with Mendelssohn's!

[Hollywood]

Take Beethoven's "Fidelio," for instance. It was staged in the city of Graz, Germany in 1933 as a pro-Nazi demonstation. In the same city in 1945, it was staged to celebrate the fall of the Nazi regime. And again in 1956, Graz staged it to celebrate the city's post-war reconstruction.

Is there a city named Graz in Germany, Hofrat? If so whereabouts is it located. I tried to look it up but without success.

Here in Austria we have the city of Graz which is the capital of the Austrian provence, Steiermark. Could this be the Graz you mentioned? Just curious.

[Hofrat]

Dear Hollywood;

OOPS!! What a faux pas on my part. Regardless, Fidelio was used--or rather, abused--by the Nazis as part of a political demonstration in Graz.

[Hollywood]

Quite alright Hofrat, you are forgiven.

I agree that the Nazis did use Beethoven to their advantage since Ludwig was a "true German" in their eyes. Here in Austria I have heard it said that "Germany gave Austria Beethoven, while Austria gave Germany Hitler". Looks like Germany lost out on that deal.

[AlexOv]

It seems to me that a lot of people just don't realize or can't realize or overlook the greatness of men like Beethoven, Schiller, and Goethe... and prefer to admire people like rock bands, rap artist, etc., and feel that they get spiritual inspiration from them, instead of people like Beethoven! People that overlook these great men are surely missing out. It is sad times that we live in and have lived in.

I liked your post on autistic savants. I have listened to Leslie Lemke several times, it is miraculous that he can do what he does.

Thank you for saying something about the autistic savants, Preston. There are many of them, I found out, and what they do is indeed miraculous, or seems so.

I wonder if anyone who read my thread actually looked at that youtube item with its Beethoven look-alike? I thought that was quite interesting and amusing at the same time.

No-one has mentioned it so far. It seems that I merely started a discussion about Nazism and music. I do appreciate what you say about how different people get inspiration from different sources. They make their choices. Unfortunately for those of us who would like to see more people worship at the feet of Beethoven (as we seem to do in this website), it often is the case that many people grow up in family environments in which they only listen to blues/rock/hip hop etc etc etc and they never have the emotional feeling for classical music that we do. Exposure. It helps instill a later love. I had it. Maybe you had it. A lot of people come to classical music without it. But for a lot of people it just isn't like that. Hip hop or whatever is all they need and we have to respect that. It's their loss. For me, the range of emotions in the hip hop I have heard is fairly limited.

But, on the other hand, during my life I have been moved by a lot of rock music in the same way as LvB's does. Maybe it's not important to hear his music; other music can get you to the same place. But there is no doubting whatsoever that LvB was much, much more prolific than any of the last centuries "rock/pop" hero songwriters and musicians no matter how many albums they released . An album a year with maybe 12 songs of 3-5 minutes duration, with most of the music being "written" by the musicians who played on the record? That's not what I call creative!

[Phil Leeds]

I did watch the you tube clip, but I didn't think the person you identified looked much like Beethoven - difficult to judge what he really looked like I think, as I mentioned in another thread about his pictures.

I've seen the other you tube clip you mentioned and think it is wonderful too - here is the link for others to enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwzvMslu7e0

[AlexOv]

I did watch the you tube clip, but I didn't think the person you identified looked much like Beethoven - difficult to judge what he really looked like I think, as I mentioned in another thread about his pictures.

I've seen the other you tube clip you mentioned and think it is wonderful too - here is the link for others to enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwzvMslu7e0

Phil, thanks for adding something.

I didn't mean that the man in the Furtwangler clip looked like what LvB really looked like ( and I agree, it is difficult to judge that, based on all of the few portraits that are left to us). What I did mean is that the man in that clip looked, to me, to have more than a passing resemblance to the LvB in those two specific portraits that I mentioned, and to me that was based on 1), the shape of the head in general, 2) the "eyes" of the viewers - us- seem to be looking at the face from the same general direction in both cases, and 3) the eyes of both that man and LvB in those portraits seem to be peering off to the right; in LvB's case to the philosphical wonderland of the sunset or to the Muses perhaps, and in the case of the man in the audience, it could have been the third cellist from the left of the tympani section:-). Who knows? And don't take this seriously, please!

[Phil Leeds]

I'll try not to take it seriously

Where is the picture gallery on this site?

[AlexOv]

I can understand why you had trouble finding it. It seemed easy a couple of weeks ago but not tonight. I guess it depends on which direction you approach these forums. However, I did locate it at

http://www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk...regallery.html

which is quite different from http://www.gyrix.com/forums, the web address for these forums. I get to here, this page, from

http://www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk

It seems confusing, and I did make a mistake in assuming that everyone got here from the same there.

I think I should have copasted the URLs of the two pictures of which I spoke directly into my original post so anyone could have instantly viewed the two pictures before looking at the youtube clip.. Ce la vie!