Op.90 - the transitional sonata

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, S's late period started earler than is considered today - he regarded the 7th and 8th symphonies as 3rd period. Looks like you got something in common with S re the 8th!

There is another school of thought that sub-divides the traditional 3 periods. With this idea, the early period is divided into Bonn and Vienna works. The middle period is split into the Eroica up to 1808/9 - the Heroic phase, with works after that date marking a new introspective style, e.g Op.78. This may be how Schindler saw it.

There are borderline works with B that don't fit comfortably into a 3 group division -(Op.90, the finale of symphony 8, coda of symphony 2 finale) and some that seem later than their date suggests such as Op.95.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Serge:
I did not know that Liszt made a categorical split with Beethoven's work. Where did he draw the line? Generally at the op. 100 mark? I think that his idea is intriguing and with good merit.

I think the Eroica marks the beginning of Liszt's second phase theory. So he groups B's music up to 1803 as phase 1 and up to 1827 as phase 2. At least it's a lot simpler that way!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think the Eroica marks the beginning of Liszt's second phase theory. So he groups B's music up to 1803 as phase 1 and up to 1827 as phase 2. At least it's a lot simpler that way!

Simpler but no way correct, circa 1814/15 we see a definite change in some of B's compositions, this becomes crystalised by the time of op102, the generally accepted first 3rd period work (as you know I myself would say the earlier still 'Elegaic Song', 'Becalmed and Prosperous Voyage' and 'The Glorious Moment' could be classified as more late than middle, for what these classifications are worth)

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Bob the Composer]

What I was trying to say is that the periods in question may not exist. The fact that there can be so much doubt over when they are further illustrated the interconnectedness of all of Beethoven's Music. When I listen to the first movement of the 9th, for example, I hear some elements of the so-called "late period", but I also still hear a distinct Mozart influence. The same pops up even in the late sonatas and Missa Solemnis. Likewise, there are traces and forshadowings of the 9th as early as the 2nd symphony, which is generally considered "early period beethoven." Beethoven's music does not conform to strict periods. Rather, it evolved organically from the Bonn sonatas to the Missa Solemnis, and reulted in the late quartets.

Bob

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I am not a number, I am a free man!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
What I was trying to say is that the periods in question may not exist. The fact that there can be so much doubt over when they are further illustrated the interconnectedness of all of Beethoven's Music. When I listen to the first movement of the 9th, for example, I hear some elements of the so-called "late period", but I also still hear a distinct Mozart influence. The same pops up even in the late sonatas and Missa Solemnis. Likewise, there are traces and forshadowings of the 9th as early as the 2nd symphony, which is generally considered "early period beethoven." Beethoven's music does not conform to strict periods. Rather, it evolved organically from the Bonn sonatas to the Missa Solemnis, and reulted in the late quartets.

Bob

I think there was more of an organic change between what we regard as periods 1 and 2 - I personally have difficulty identifying any defining work that marks the change - for example is the Eroica truely of the same nature ('period-wise') as the Appassionata or the Rasumovsky Quartets? But with the late period I think there is a much more strongly defined change, beginning with the works I mention above. There is a more noticeable baroque influence in these later works - in structure and in style, B's thematic material and use of counterpoint often reminds me of Handel and Bach in these works. Of course B's own personal stamp still predominates, but one experiences an emotional shift with these later works that is more akin to the earlier style. On the other hand there is still a strong Classical influence also - as you say regarding the 9th - which is still a very Classical piece in the first 3 movements. But with the chamber and vocal music B makes more conscious use of the technique of the Baroque masters, to my ears, in addition to the more familiar Classical forms that are always prevalent in B's music.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin