Bach

[Chris]

OK, so after the other thread, I'd like to talk about Bach a little.

First of all, Bach on the piano. I previously expressed my dissatisfaction with Bach played on the piano. But perhaps I have just been listening to the wrong recordings? I have never been a huge fan of Bach's works for solo keyboard; I don't like playing them, and I don't like listening to them all that much. So maybe I can be convinced. What are some of your suggestions for recordings of Bach's solo keyboard works on the piano? Let's say the two and three part inventions, WTC, and the Goldberg Variations to start with.

Secondly, for those of you who took or give lessons - what pieces do you think are the best to introducing students to the more "serious" Bach? My teacher used the two and three part inventions. A good idea? And at what point do you think a student can handle these pieces?

[Peter]

Firstly what recordings have you listened to? For the 48 I have Edwin Fischer and the sound is good for the 1930's and his musicianship outstanding. Angela Hewitt is highly thought of and Murray Perahia has recorded an acclaimed Goldberg Variations. Now of course Glenn Gould, overall despite his amazing technique I find him too much the same - staccato. Having said that I think his first Goldberg variations is amazing.

Yes the 2 and 3 part inventions are a good place to start, but even the easiest are only available after around 4 years of study.

[atserriotserri]

I agree with Peter, he has given you the keys for the WTC: Fischer and Gould (I am a devoted fan of Gould, so I'm not impartial). I haven't listened to Perahia or Hewitt, and Tureck is another reference. Concerning Fischer, you have to be careful to look after the EMI Reference recording, since there is an issue from Naxos of the same recording but their noise reduction system also removed many information, losing nuances and color.
As a recent recording, available at special price (at least here in Spain) I would definitely recommend Vladimir Ashkenazy (Decca). He does not have anything to prove, no concerts agenda, and seems he took advantage of this situation to provide a brilliant performance.

[Chris]

I honestly cannot remember much about what I have heard before, except that I did not like them much. Gould and Schiff for sure, but I am sure many others. Gould just seems to take tempos dynamics and ornaments and does whatever he feels like with them, and I do not much care for that. He claims it "makes sense" but if it does, it's beyond my ability to make sense of it.

I have not heard Ashkenazy, and I love his Chopin, so I will have to look into that.

I have occasionally run across a suggested order of study for the WTC. Does anyone have a link to such a thing? Or something similar for the inventions?

[Peter]

I honestly cannot remember much about what I have heard before, except that I did not like them much. Gould and Schiff for sure, but I am sure many others. Gould just seems to take tempos dynamics and ornaments and does whatever he feels like with them, and I do not much care for that. He claims it "makes sense" but if it does, it's beyond my ability to make sense of it.

I have not heard Ashkenazy, and I love his Chopin, so I will have to look into that.

I have occasionally run across a suggested order of study for the WTC. Does anyone have a link to such a thing? Or something similar for the inventions?

As regards order of study - it depends what you're looking for. The preludes to my mind offer some very fine technical exercises as well as superb music - the fugues not always so (some are quite dry) and it isn't necessary to always do the pair (unless of course it's for a recital). Some of my favourite 'technical' preludes from book 1 are the D major, D minor and G major. From book 2 the F# minor is particularly beautiful and the G# minor great fun! I always do some Bach preludes rather than dry finger exercises.

[Sorrano]

After working with a few of the inventions and preludes my piano teacher introduced me to one of the French Suites for keyboard and that might be an idea. Sometimes I have the urge to go back and work on them again, but it has been many years and I was not very fond of Bach in those days!

[Chris]

As regards order of study - it depends what you're looking for. The preludes to my mind offer some very fine technical exercises as well as superb music - the fugues not always so (some are quite dry) and it isn't necessary to always do the pair (unless of course it's for a recital). Some of my favourite 'technical' preludes from book 1 are the D major, D minor and G major. From book 2 the F# minor is particularly beautiful and the G# minor great fun! I always do some Bach preludes rather than dry finger exercises.

Actually, I was thinking more of an order of technical difficulty of the fugues. I know I have seen such a list. I'll have to search around for it...

[Peter]

Actually, I was thinking more of an order of technical difficulty of the fugues. I know I have seen such a list. I'll have to search around for it...

Well I can tell you the big diploma prelude and fugues (most difficult)

Book I - 3,4,7,8,12,15,20,24
Book II - 3,4,10,14,16,18,21,22,23,24

[Chris]

Also, I wonder if the Golgberg Variations are really supposed to be played as one long piece. If you actually observed all the repeats, it would take a really long time to get through the whole thing. Unless you took some really, really fast tempos...

[Chris]

Well, I have been listening to samples, trying to find recordings that might make Bach on the piano more interesting to me. So I have made these purchases:

Two and Three Part Inventions: Janos Sebestyen
Well-Tempered Clavier: Vladamir Ashkenazy
Goldberg Variations: Charles Rosen

We will see what happens!

Incidently, there are a lot of things I like about Gould's Goldberg Variations. I liked the stacatto, lack of tempo and dynamic changes, and the non-Romantic feel of it. Some of his tempo choices seemed wrong, though. And his choice of when to observe repeats seem terrible. In his last recording, why only repeat the first half of the first 15 variations? I imagine this actually has something to do with how long it could be and still fit on the recording medium.

But the things that killed Gould's version more than anything is the singing! My goodness, the man dedicated his career to recording as opposed to performing and he couldn't manage to get the singing under control!? It's really, really distracting!

See the man in action.

[jbanks94]

I would say that of the Goldberg Variations, Jeno Jando's recording on Naxos would be one to go for. He makes the keyboard sing beautifully.

[Preston]

Incidently, there are a lot of things I like about Gould's Goldberg Variations. I liked the stacatto, lack of tempo and dynamic changes, and the non-Romantic feel of it. Some of his tempo choices seemed wrong, though. And his choice of when to observe repeats seem terrible. In his last recording, why only repeat the first half of the first 15 variations? I imagine this actually has something to do with how long it could be and still fit on the recording medium.

But the things that killed Gould's version more than anything is the singing! My goodness, the man dedicated his career to recording as opposed to performing and he couldn't manage to get the singing under control!? It's really, really distracting!

See the man in action.

After watching and listening to the video, Gould seems to me, to be very passionate.

Does anyone know why he sang or hummed when he played? Apparently he could not control it. Maybe he was so moved that for him it made him sing... for some reason.

[Chris]

After watching and listening to the video, Gould seems to me, to be very passionate.

Does anyone know why he sang or hummed when he played? Apparently he could not control it. Maybe he was so moved that for him it made him sing... for some reason.

I have read that his mother encouraged him to sing when he was first learning the piano in order to encourage greater musicianship. I have also read that Jeno Jando does the same thing, but puts an unlit cigarette in his mouth to stop himself from doing it.

I don't know, I have tried singing like this while playing, and I thought it was pretty hard!

Anyway, I have just finished listening to my purchases. My thoughts:

Two and Three Part Inventions: Janos Sebestyen

Good recordings. Nothing too special. This would be a good referece recording for students, I think. Brought back memories of playing some of these pieces from piano lessons.

Well-Tempered Clavier: Vladimir Ashkenazy

These recordings were amazing. Ashkenazy has such a clean, exact style of playing (cleanest Chopin I have ever heard). Some people criticize him for it, but I really like it. He seems to understand that there is an emotional and intellectual side to music. But that it is the intellect that must be the driving force. As Alfred Brendel says, without that, when there is only emotion and no intellect, it is amateurish. This approach really pays off here, I think - of all recordings I have ever heard, these may have caused me to look the most favorably on Bach on the piano as opposed to the harpichord. Though there are still places where the texture of the pieces seems to cry out for a harpsichord, such as the Book I C minor prelude.

Goldberg Variations: Charles Rosen

This was good, another good reference recording I think, but although tempos were appropriate and swift, it seemed to be lacking some energy that Ashkenazy had in his WTC recording and Gould always had in his Bach recordings.

[Preston]

I have read that his mother encouraged him to sing when he was first learning the piano in order to encourage greater musicianship. I have also read that Jeno Jando does the same thing, but puts an unlit cigarette in his mouth to stop himself from doing it.

I don't know, I have tried singing like this while playing, and I thought it was pretty hard!

Thanks Chris. If you watch Gould closely, the guy doesn't miss a note while singing! Even when the playing is fast his mouth hits every note possible and when it is slow the same thing.

[Chris]

Yes, that's true. There seem to be parts where he doesn't sing so much, though. According to him, he sang more when he felt the piano was not able to express what he wanted to so well, and less when it was.