What happened to the harpsichord?

[Peter]

No, but I would like people who are making authoritative statements about these things to provide some justification. I read things like this too often, and have to question how the person knows these things or what he is basing them on. A lot of it comes off like random assumption to me.

You're not going to get a consensus, even amongst HIP performers but I think I have provided enough evidence here from respected treatise of the day to show that crescendo and diminuendo (though not notated until mid 18th century) were known and expected to be used by the voice and instruments capable of doing so.

Arnold Dolmetsch provided valuable insight into baroque practices in his ground breaking book 'The interpretation of the music of the 17th and 18th centuries' which draws on respected 18th century sources. I suggest a read of that to see just how involved interpreting baroque music is. Let me give just one example out of hundreds: The uneven playing of passing notes was so universally understood that when even playing was required the composer gave special directions to that effect - In a 1692 preface to his music, Marin Marais states that "the dots above the notes indicate that you must play all the notes equal, instead of dwelling on the first and shortening the second in the usual way." In other words successive notes of equal value were understood not to be played evenly, yet this rule didn't apply to Allemandes!
Dots above notes of course even in Beethoven mean different things - in Op.110 they are sometimes used as accents, not staccato - yet he doesn't specify that, it is understood. In Op.28 it is understood that the repeated tied notes were meant as the bebung, but again not specified - these are not assumptions, but interpretations based on sound knowledge of musical styles.

Now we may disagree with say Gould, Fischer or Angela Hewitt, but I wouldn't question the integrity of artists of that calibre - I have no doubt they formed their own conclusions (using evidence that is not always conclusive) from a combination of detailed analysis and natural musical instinct, not random assumption.

Surely there is also an element of assumption when deciding to use no vibrato or dynamic variation? I think a balance has to be struck and some of the HIP intepreter's such as Norrington are rather too dogmatic on this issue in my opinion - after all Leopold Mozart complained of vibrato being used continually, not the fact that is was used.

[Chaszz]

... Look at Czerny's edition of the 48 - he claimed his markings were based on Beethoven's interpretations, yet today this edition is rightly frowned upon because of the excessive dynamic variations and extremes that with modern research we believe to be unstylistic, almost Romantic....

almost Romantic?

almost ROMANTIC?

ALMOST ROMANTIC??

DID PETER SAY BEETHOVEN WOTE SOMETHING ALMOST ROMANTIC???

Nah, gotta be a typo...

[Peter]

almost Romantic?

almost ROMANTIC?

ALMOST ROMANTIC??

DID PETER SAY BEETHOVEN WOTE SOMETHING ALMOST ROMANTIC???

Nah, gotta be a typo...

No Chaszz don't get too excited! (Good to know you are still lurking around!)
I said Czerny's 1837 edition of Bach's 48(which he claimed was influenced by the memory of how Beethoven played them) suggests dynamic markings of an 'almost Romantic' nature which are obviously stylistically inappropiate for Bach. I simply wished to clarify with Chris that I wasn't advocating that sort of interpretation by justifying dynamic variations. It seems to me that calling for no crescendo or diminuendos is just as extreme a position, and which is in itself an assumption based merely on the text which is not enough given that the 48 would have been played on the Clavichord as well as the harpsichord.

In Bach's time–and before–the clavichord was a revelation because its directness of touch gave the player both dynamics and a type of vibrato that allows a level of expressiveness unavailable in other keyboard instruments. C.P.E.Bach, was described by Charles Burney playing the clavichord: "In the pathetic and slow movements, whenever he had a long note to express, he absolutely contrived to produce from his instrument a cry of sorrow and complaint, such as can only be affected upon the clavichord, and perhaps by himself." How does a composer notate that?

[Quijote]

The piano is a more expressive instrument. But the harpsichord was still used - think of opera.

Hmm ... dubious statement, Chris. Depends what you wish to express.

[Quijote]

I think that is a very good question, Preston. It is still a very good instrument and I feel should certainly not be neglected. While I am not familiar with many current compositions that require harpsichord you might, if you get a chance, to listen to Ligeti's Continuum. It is quite unreal what he did in that work with the harpsichord.

I am relieved to read that Sorrano is au fait with Ligeti's 'Continuum'; indeed, I am equally relieved that he believes it to be a 'very good' instrument. Does figured bass now have a future, I ask myself ?

In the meantime Sorrano, why not check out Schnittke's 'Four Hymns' where the harpischord also plays an important part (especially movements III and IV).

[Quijote]

You are confusing loud/soft (which the harpsichord could do) with getting louder and softer (which it could not). The dynamic markings that appear in baroque scores have led to much misunderstanding - because generally Bach only indicated louds and softs (a system that came to be known as terrace dynamics) many interpreters took this literally assuming he meant no graduation of tone - this is clearly nonsense and unmusical. Baroque keyboard music is also far more ornamental (trills, mordents, etc) than classical, precisely to make the music more expressive in the absence of crescendos, diminuendos and sforzandi.

As to the Bebüng (echo effect) - Beethoven actually uses this in his Pastorale Sonata Op.28 first movement, but it was definitely a throw back.

Correct, though your answer seems to suggest that a piano can get louder or softer once the key has been struck, which of course is not the case.

It is true that there is much left out of baroque scores, as this would have been understood by players of the time. However, your statement that baroque keyboard music is far more 'ornamental' than classical music gives only half the picture : trills and mordents etc were also a way of 'prolonging' a note that could not be 'sustained' (duration / decay); your point is interesting, because the piano in Beethoven's early career also had little 'sustain'. Looking on to the 'late period' piano works, we may ask ourselves in light of Peter's comments why LvB chose to employ the trill to such an extent.

[Quijote]

I often read through my posts and think what a long winded mess - my dreams of a literary career long ago shattered! .

Me too.

[Quijote]

Actually, I have many things to say about the above postings, but am too tired right now. I will come back to you, especially Chris and Peter.

[Sorrano]

Correct, though your answer seems to suggest that a piano can get louder or softer once the key has been struck, which of course is not the case.

It is true that there is much left out of baroque scores, as this would have been understood by players of the time. However, your statement that baroque keyboard music is far more 'ornamental' than classical music gives only half the picture : trills and mordents etc were also a way of 'prolonging' a note that could not be 'sustained' (duration / decay); your point is interesting, because the piano in Beethoven's early career also had little 'sustain'. Looking on to the 'late period' piano works, we may ask ourselves in light of Peter's comments why LvB chose to employ the trill to such an extent.

With respect to ornamentation, I have had the understanding that ornamentation had more to do with the expressiveness of the work (speaking of the Baroque period) than it had in the Classical and Romantic Periods. The use of trills (such as in the Beethoven Hammerklavier) in the later periods tend to be more of virtuosity effect than of expression.

Also, in respect to dynamic markings in the music, don't you think it is interesting how the composer has become more and more controlling in his music as time has progressed? Compare the music of Boulez to that of Bach, for example and you see that there is quite a contrast. I would suggest that the Baroque composers expected the performers to take quite a bit of liberty with the music, that therein expression with dynamics, ornamentation, or whatever else takes play at the inspiration of the performer.

[Peter]

Correct, though your answer seems to suggest that a piano can get louder or softer once the key has been struck, which of course is not the case.

It is true that there is much left out of baroque scores, as this would have been understood by players of the time. However, your statement that baroque keyboard music is far more 'ornamental' than classical music gives only half the picture : trills and mordents etc were also a way of 'prolonging' a note that could not be 'sustained' (duration / decay); your point is interesting, because the piano in Beethoven's early career also had little 'sustain'. Looking on to the 'late period' piano works, we may ask ourselves in light of Peter's comments why LvB chose to employ the trill to such an extent.

Well as a pianist and teacher, I certainly didn't intend to imply that a single note on the piano once struck could crescendo (though the illusion of this can be attained). As for LVB's use of the trill, of course it wasn't confined just to keyboard - it is texture and sonority rather than decoration that is the difference in his approach.

[Chris]

Oh right, that's another reason I prefer the harpsichord, where appropriate - much easier to do those trills! Well, compared to a Steinway, at least...

[Quijote]

[...] Another reason it went out of fashion is that Baroque orchestral music included a harpsichord continuo that underlined the bass part - this became redundant in later music, though Beethoven continued the tradition by having the piano doing the same in the orchestral (tutti) sections of his piano concerti - this practice is never observed today.

Not only Beethoven : Robert Levin plays continuo in Mozart's piano concertos because "the composer called for it".