Johann and Caspar van Beethoven

[TiberiaClaudia]

Hey everyone,

I just finished a book by Edmund Morris on the life of LvB. In this book he talks briefly about LvB's brothers, Johann and Caspar. I've seen all the movies, read all the sites, etc., and had the impression Caspar wasn't so bad and Johann was akin to a used car salesman...

However, from what Morris had to say he referred to Caspar as "red-haired, ugly, and violent" and Johann as a "good-hearted soul always good for (lending LvB) a bag of silver."

I know LvB's relationships with his brothers were tumultus. Before reading Morris, I never knew before how Caspar had tried to profit from LvB's work, nor that he stabbed Johanna through the hand with a knife. I'm interested in learning more about LvB's brothers--does anyone have any information or links? Also--and I *know* I will butcher the spelling on the estate's name--but does anyone have photographs of Johann's home at Gneixendorf?

I'm reading along about Schindler on the other (lead in hair) thread. Interesting. I don't personally believe Schindler was gay, but until the Apollonia Stepan reference, had no information to even remotely confirm or deny my personal thoughts on the matter. Does anyone know what he died of? I think I remember reading Pneumonia, but I am not certain.

Good to be back after a bit of a hiatus...listening to Beethoven's 7th now. A belated Happy New Year to you all!

Cheers,
TC

PS-I have Thayer's 2 Volume life of Beethoven on special order as I type!

[Hollywood]

Check out this site for photos of Beethoven's brother's house in Gneixendorf, T.C.: http://www.madaboutbeethoven.com/pag...neixendorf.htm

[Peter]

Hey everyone,

I just finished a book by Edmund Morris on the life of LvB. In this book he talks briefly about LvB's brothers, Johann and Caspar. I've seen all the movies, read all the sites, etc., and had the impression Caspar wasn't so bad and Johann was akin to a used car salesman...

However, from what Morris had to say he referred to Caspar as "red-haired, ugly, and violent" and Johann as a "good-hearted soul always good for (lending LvB) a bag of silver."

I know LvB's relationships with his brothers were tumultus. Before reading Morris, I never knew before how Caspar had tried to profit from LvB's work, nor that he stabbed Johanna through the hand with a knife. I'm interested in learning more about LvB's brothers--does anyone have any information or links? Also--and I *know* I will butcher the spelling on the estate's name--but does anyone have photographs of Johann's home at Gneixendorf?

I'm reading along about Schindler on the other (lead in hair) thread. Interesting. I don't personally believe Schindler was gay, but until the Apollonia Stepan reference, had no information to even remotely confirm or deny my personal thoughts on the matter. Does anyone know what he died of? I think I remember reading Pneumonia, but I am not certain.

Good to be back after a bit of a hiatus...listening to Beethoven's 7th now. A belated Happy New Year to you all!

Cheers,
TC

PS-I have Thayer's 2 Volume life of Beethoven on special order as I type!

Yes Beethoven's relations with his brothers were a real rollercoaster. Kaspar Karl arrived in Vienna in 1794 initially giving music lessons and even composing a little. He became a clerk in the department of finance but also assisted beethoven in his dealings with publishers and at this stage Beethoven had full confidence in him "Although evil persons have spread rumours that he does not act honourably towards me, I can assure you that this is untrue and that, on the contrary he has at all times taken care of my affairs with complete integrity." It appears that after Kaspar Karl's marriage to Johanna Riess (May 25th 1806) he ceased acting as Beethoven's secretary/business manager and relations deteriorated between them. Beethoven did assist them financially in later years, Particularly when Kaspar became ill - a financial loan however resulted in Beethoven suing Johanna for not repaying it. After Kaspar's death of course the well known saga with his nephew began.

The other brother Nikolaus Johann was apprenticed to the court pharmacist at Bonn and arrived in Vienna where he passed the necessary professional examinations. Not much is known about the relations between the two in these early years but a letter of Ries's (13 sept 1803) states that Beethoven ceded the rights of several compositions (Op.52, 2-4, 6-8, WoO55 and WoO117) to Johann - this implies the possibility that Johann had helped Beethoven financially. Johann attempted to set up business first in Vienna and Graz but without succes - he managed in 1808 to purchase the pharmacy 'Zur goldenen Krone' in Linz and the following year he obtained some lucrative contracts supplying the French army. In 1819 he bought the estate at Gneixendorf and in 1821 another house in Linz. During the winter months he generally stayed in a flat in Vienna belonging to his brother in law. During these later years Beethoven was glad of his brother's assistance in business matters and even proposed that they should share a flat - when nothing came of this he took rooms (July 1822) adjoining Johann's Vienna flat. That year Johann also lent Beethoven some more money and was granted the rights to more compositions (Opp.121b, 122, 124, 126, 128). His feelings though towards Johann were contradictory and ambivalent - he requested that Johann should not be appointed karl's guardian.

In all his relations with his brothers, they are all poisoned by his hatred of their spouses which obviously must have put a tremendous strain on the brothers themselves and their reactions to Beethoven - surely they at least deserve some credit for remaining on speaking terms despite this? Schindler is the man most responsible for sullying their reputations. Johann lived on until 1848 having sold the Gneixendorf estate in 1835 - he bought a house at Weikersdorf near Baden in 1845. His sole heir of his 42,000 Florin estate was his nephew Karl van Beethoven.

[Michael]

You can hear some minuets written by Karl (Beethoven's brother) at the Unheard Beethoven site. The work was formerly attributed to Beethoven himself and still has the catalogue number: WoO 12

[gardibolt]

We also have in the works a piano sonata for 4 hands written by Caspar Carl, if anyone's interested in that. He was no Ludwig, but he had a decent sense of melody and might have made a minor name for himself if he had been born into a different family.

[TiberiaClaudia]

Thanks for all of the information, you guys! I'd be interested in hearing the stuff composed by Caspar Carl.

I'm still awaiting my 2 volumes on Beethoven's life (by Thayer) to arrive...

I read in Morris that Johann had consumption like Caspar Carl. I have never heard this claim before reading Morris' work, though I suppose it's possible since their mother died from it. For someone who supposedly had TB, however, didn't Johann live a fairly long time? And was Caspar always consumptive, even from infancy? I am guessing so, since Morris refers to it along the lines of an "inherited" condition, so to speak. He also says that LvB himself had fears of contracting the disease and took to the obsessive habit of spitting.

LvB's attitude towards his brothers' spouses shows his feelings of superiority and his moralist attitude. It seems his major hang-ups lay in the fact both women had children out of wedlock. Yet, to me, this is so contradictory since Morris points out that LvB solicited prostitutes. He also goes on to say that, from a reference in the conversation texts, Beethoven took up an acquaintence's offer of his wife for one particularly cold evening. Moralist, indeed! I am sure those people who hero-worship Beethoven will have problems digesting this information.

Morris seconds Solomon's proposal of the Immortal Beloved's identity. I've read comments made by members here in passing about Solomon's claims. So who agrees with him? Who does not? More importantly, why? I read all of the theories and just kind of shrug. For whatever reason, knowing who she is/was isn't so important to me. After all, he loved tons of women throughout his life...

Hollywood--thanks for the link to the images of Johann's estate! I'd been to the madaboutbeethoven site but somehow managed to miss those. His apartments were absolutely beautiful...

Sorry my replies are slower than when I first joined, I'm working long hours until I go back to college on Monday...so Internet time is short...

TC

Ps-are there any other descriptions of Caspar Carl's appearance than the one given by (I believe) C. Czerny? And what was up with Johann's one eye??

[Fanny del Rio]

Other descriptions of Carl van Beethoven:

Ferdinand Ries (the great pupil of Beethoven) in a letter to Nikolaus Simrock, a friend and publisher in Bonn, Briefwechsel Gesamtausgabe 136, May 6,1803:

Carl is the greatest niggard of the world, for one ducat he takes 50 given words back and so he makes his good brother (Ludwig) the greatest enemies. Every note Ludwig plays, the other (Carl) sells already, just a low soul (this is an old expression for someone who haven’t a morality and honor)

Ferdinand Ries in a letter to Nikolaus Simrock Briefwechsel Gesamtausgabe 155 Sep.13 1803:
Here every puplisher fears him (Carl) more than fire, because he is so terrible rude, nobody wants somthing to do with him

Simrock had published the correct version of op.31 1 and 2 and sent 3 copys to Carl, which he intercepted. Ries had the order from Beethoven to correct the copys and had to borrow it from Traeg, because he didn’t know that Carl has got some from Simrock. When Beethoven heard about this, he was very angry. Ries wrote in a letter to Nikolaus Simrock (Briefwechsel Gesamtausgabe 165 Oct.22 1803):
Beethoven will greet you and says, please write your answer to me (Ries), because his brother (Carl) will certainly intercept the letters, which are not for himself, for he (Carl) is capable of anything.

[TiberiaClaudia]

Thanks for those, Fanny. The more I hear about Caspar Carl, the more I tend to think less of him as compared to Johann.

While it is true both Johann and Caspar had their hands full with Ludwig, Ludwig had his hands full with Johann and Caspar!

TC

[Hofrat]

Franz Gloeggl, the Kapellmeister of Linz, responded to a query of Robert Schumann in a letter dated 19 July 1838:

"I knew the master L. Beethoven and his brother the cashier very well. Because of a family matter they came here [Linz] to avoid a public scandal. I served as the mediator. I got to know L. Beethoven as a high minded, refined, kind-hearted, unpretentious man. The two brothers, however, were wretched human beings."

Enough said!!

[TiberiaClaudia]

Hofrat-
I just read Gerhard von Breuning's recollections and the light in which he paints Johann is most sour as compared to Morris' work. In Breuning's recollection, Morris' "Kind-hearted soul" becomes a contemptuous bastard who furthered LvB's already weakened state after his arrival at Gneixendorf with Karl with the charge of rent, bad/inadequate food, and a poorly/seldomly heated room.

This was according to letters LvB sent Stephan von Breuning, Gerhard's father. However...Beethoven complained about food and accomodation a lot--look at the number of housekeepers/cooks/lodgings he went through! Perhaps the food and room issue were Beethoven's perceptions and not reality? I did read in a conversation book Johann's side of an exchange over rent at Gneixendorf.

TC

[Peter]

Hofrat-
I just read Gerhard von Breuning's recollections and the light in which he paints Johann is most sour as compared to Morris' work. In Breuning's recollection, Morris' "Kind-hearted soul" becomes a contemptuous bastard who furthered LvB's already weakened state after his arrival at Gneixendorf with Karl with the charge of rent, bad/inadequate food, and a poorly/seldomly heated room.

This was according to letters LvB sent Stephan von Breuning, Gerhard's father. However...Beethoven complained about food and accomodation a lot--look at the number of housekeepers/cooks/lodgings he went through! Perhaps the food and room issue were Beethoven's perceptions and not reality? I did read in a conversation book Johann's side of an exchange over rent at Gneixendorf.

TC

Firstly Gerhard Von Breuning's recollections (interesting as they are) were written many years after these events and he was much influenced in his prejudices against the Beethoven family by Schindler. Now we know that Beethoven's attitude to his brothers constantly changed from great one day to foul the next - even in Stephan von Breuning's case this happened as the two fell out for many years and only renewed their friendship in the last few years of Beethoven's life. Put yourself in Johann's position - you offer Ludwig hospitality despite the insults levelled at your wife, only to have demands and complaints made about your domestic arrangements - the guest from hell perhaps?! There are two sides to every coin and it is all too easy to side with Beethoven because of his genius, but as a man he was all too human.

[TiberiaClaudia]

Peter-

Agreed, and things necessary to take into consideration. I suppose I'd not like having Beethoven as a houseguest.

TC

[Hofrat]

Let me clarify. Kapellmeister Gloeggl called Ludwig van Beethoven "a kind-hearted soul." He called Ludwig's brothers "wretched human beings."

[TiberiaClaudia]

Hey Hofrat-

I was referring to Edmund Morris' work where he calls Johann a "kind-hearted soul always good for a bag of silver"

The jury's out on Johann. Some people write well of him, some call him a wretch. Of course Peter is right--it's too easy to side with Beethoven, the genius, because--well, he's Beethoven!! Guess it all depends on who you're reading and how they were involved.

Who is your Avatar of, Hofrat?

TC

[Hofrat]

My Avatar is the Swedish composer Joachim Eggert (1779-1813), a great music innovator albeit very unknown to musicologists. He scored trombones in a symphony 18 months before Beethoven did!