Beethoven: Writing Music and Improvisation

[Preston]

First, why did it take longer for Beethoven to write a piece while Mozart just wrote it quickly?

I don't understand how he could improvise perfectly for hours on end but then take around 2 years to write a piece?

Does anyone have any information on this?

[Peter]

Beethoven didn't always take 2 years to write a piece and Mozart didn't always dash off a work overnight! I think Mozart had a phenomenal memory and was able to carry his thoughts in his head for a long time and then simply write them down, though he probably destroyed many of his workings rather than preserve them as Beethoven did.

However you are right that generally speaking Beethoven was a much slower worker than Mozart. Partly this has to do with the necessity Mozart faced in making a living - there was an urgency that Beethoven didn't have. If you look at Beethoven's output from his first period (basically his 18th century works) he was far more prolific but slowed up with age, increasing deafness and the emotional struggles of the last years.

[Michael]

Also Beethoven was practically re-inventing himself with each new work. The early works of Haydn and Mozart are recognizably still within the broad idiom of the strictly classical period. But, for just one example, compare B's Opus 1 with his Opus 111.
Anyway, I think that Mozart and Beethoven had just different ways of composing. Mozart did the doodling in his head and Beethoven did it on bits of paper which, by the way, was his habit long before deafness set in.

[PDG]

And sometimes he needed the added spur of a promised commission to finish a work (eg. The Ninth). I think the pivotal point here was the setting up of his pension by his patrons (done to persuade him to stay in Vienna). Once this arrangement was done, he really does appear to have become a man of leisure, writing-wise! Although of course, it's qualitative output that really counts - would we rather have Beethoven's 9 symphonies in our collection, or Haydn's 100+?

[al1432]

would we rather have Beethoven's 9 symphonies in our collection, or Haydn's 100+?

Exactly so, to my thinking. I mean, (solo) McCartney has been rattling off tunes for the past 30+ years, most of which (sadly) I can't stand to listen to, but he sure is prolific. Not that I'm comparing McCartney to Mozart but you get the idea. Also, after watching Barenboim's analyses of the Beethoven sonatas, I came away with a new appreciation of the complexity therein. I think it's one thing to improvise, and another to organize a highly complex structure. And also, keep in mind that Beethoven's compositions had a complexity well beyond that of many of Mozart's. And finally, it couldn't have been easy composing while deaf! I'd think one would have to go over things with a fine tooth comb in that instance, more so than if one's hearing were intact.

[PDG]

Exactly so, to my thinking. I mean, (solo) McCartney has been rattling off tunes for the past 30+ years, most of which (sadly) I can't stand to listen to, but he sure is prolific. Not that I'm comparing McCartney to Mozart but you get the idea. Also, after watching Barenboim's analyses of the Beethoven sonatas, I came away with a new appreciation of the complexity therein. I think it's one thing to improvise, and another to organize a highly complex structure. And also, keep in mind that Beethoven's compositions had a complexity well beyond that of many of Mozart's. And finally, it couldn't have been easy composing while deaf! I'd think one would have to go over things with a fine tooth comb in that instance, more so than if one's hearing were intact.

Well Al, you make a few good points!

Why not compare Mozart with McCartney? In a thousand years (if the Earth is still around) I promise you that McC will be revered just as much as Wolfie. Why can't you stand to listen to Macca? It's not a crime..... But, anyway...

Yes, Beethoven's music is more complex than Mozart's. Even with the Mozart piano concertos, it is still not easy for me to identify one theme, and place it for certainty within a numbered work. There seems to be a far more loose association of movements within works by Mozart; but with Beethoven, the overall musical structure seems perfectly natural. For example, you would be shocked to hear the Allegretto of Symphony 7 transplanted into Symphony 4. Whereas, a middle period Mozart concerto seems to be basically three very nice and clever movements strung together without a particularly distinctive, family cohesion.

[al1432]

Why can't you stand to listen to Macca?

Well, to clarify my statement, there are McCartney tunes that are think are excellent...but there are too many (to my ears) that are just mediocre and too saccharin. When he's good, he's very good, I will say that. And of course, the synergy with Lennon produced some very excellent sounds. I'd still call him a musical genius for all he HAS done, but not everything he writes is to my taste. And, in 1,000 years...we may all be listening to Krell music by then

Al

[Preston]

This is an interesting point I feel, that he wrote fast in his earlier period and not as fast in his middle and late periods. I feel, as said above, that it was because he was writing more complex music in his middle and late periods, that it required and involved far more thought than was put into Mozart's music. He had mastered the Classical Style of Mozart and Haydn, then, I think, he wanted something far more complex. So when Beethoven said, "I am not satisfied with my work thus far. From this day on I shall forge a new path.", he was very serious. I find it most interesting that he would write music quickly in his earlier period and didn't usually write as quickly in his middle and late periods. That shows us there was some drastic change in Beethoven's life between early and middle period.

[Peter]

I find it most interesting that he would write music quickly in his earlier period and didn't usually write as quickly in his middle and late periods. That shows us there was some drastic change in Beethoven's life between early and middle period.

Yes, he lost his hearing! Don't forget he was a younger man, full of hope, ambition and probably much happier. He also wrote the piano concertos with his own performance in mind, and I daresay without deafness he would have written many more than just 5. There is a greater complexity in the later music, but I don't think you can equate that with 'less thought' in the works of Mozart. One could argue that no music is more complex than the contrapuntal textures of Bach who was one of the most prolific of composers.

[Preston]

I do feel that there is more thought in Beethoven's music than Mozart's. Keep in mind that Beethoven started studying different religions during the transition between the early and middle period, which probably provoked more enlightened feelings and understandings. "Beethoven wrote of the Heavens and Earth", to quote Bernstein. Although, since Beethoven was studied in religion and spirituality, I imagine his music to have more thought.

[Peter]

I do feel that there is more thought in Beethoven's music than Mozart's. Keep in mind that Beethoven started studying different religions during the transition between the early and middle period, which probably provoked more enlightened feelings and understandings. "Beethoven wrote of the Heavens and Earth", to quote Bernstein. Although, since Beethoven was studied in religion and spirituality, I imagine his music to have more thought.

I'm sorry Preston but I don't agree. To say 'there is more thought in Beethoven's music than Mozart's' is a pointless remark - I mean do you imagine not much thought was needed to produce Don Giovani, the Magic flute or the Jupiter symphony to name just a few of western music's greatest achievements? As to Beethoven's knowledge of other religions, Mozart was not exactly uneducated - in fact read his letters and compare them to Beethoven's! Why is it on this forum that it has to boil down to some kind of competition? Both Mozart and Beethoven were great composers who reached the heights in different ways.

[Preston]

It is not a competition, at all, and I am not trying to bring it to this forum, at all. I thought it was just a discussion. I think that Mozart was a great composer, one of the best. I just feel that there is not as much thought in his music as Beethoven's. That is just my feelings, understandings, and opinion. Nothing to discuss about Beethoven and Mozart if you wish, because I certainly don't want to discuss it either, .

[Peter]

It is not a competition, at all, and I am not trying to bring it to this forum, at all. I thought it was just a discussion. I think that Mozart was a great composer, one of the best. I just feel that there is not as much thought in his music as Beethoven's. That is just my feelings, understandings, and opinion. Nothing to discuss about Beethoven and Mozart if you wish, because I certainly don't want to discuss it either, .

I don't know quite how we'd measure the relative brainpower used by these composers! I think you find Beethoven more thought provoking and a deeper composer and I can relate to that - but as you say these are personal opinions and we all react differently.

[PDG]

I'm sorry Preston but I don't agree. To say 'there is more thought in Beethoven's music than Mozart's' is a pointless remark - I mean do you imagine not much thought was needed to produce Don Giovani, the Magic flute or the Jupiter symphony to name just a few of western music's greatest achievements? As to Beethoven's knowledge of other religions, Mozart was not exactly uneducated - in fact read his letters and compare them to Beethoven's! Why is it on this forum that it has to boil down to some kind of competition? Both Mozart and Beethoven were great composers who reached the heights in different ways.

Overall, I agree with Preston. I think by "more thought" he meant "more thought-provoking". Mozart's compositional achievements in opera are unparalleled, but opera as a genre is not pure musical form - it relies on a libretto and actors' interpretations to succeed, on an acting level not that far removed from pantomime. I think it's for these reasons that Beethoven's Fidelio struggled (and still struggles) for mass acceptance, and why his Creatures Of Prometheus all but failed as a ballet score; ie. the music was just too good (or learned) for the associated project. So to call Don Giovanni and The Magic Flute examples of western music's greatest achievements has to be a a bit of a stretch. I'll relent with regards to the Jupiter symphony (Mozart's 50th!), but I don't regard it as a particularly greater work than Beethoven's 2nd, and it cannot compare on any artistic level to LvB's 3rd (unless I'm missing something).

Preston never raised the subject spectre of "competition".

[al1432]

There is a difference between "more thought" and "depth of thought", and I think depth of thought may be the defining phrase here. Depth of thought may cause someone to think something is more thought-provoking. And in all this, personality structure certainly comes into play. From what we know of him, Beethoven was compulsive in his creative process, witnessed by his constant rewritings to the point of wearing out the score sheets. He appeared to be inscrutably moral, even criticizing some of Mozart's librettos over what he considered to be questionable material. He possessed (or was possessed by) an intensity that often left him bereft of his orientation in the ordinary world, as in the instance where he slept in the woods only to be arrested as a vagrant due to his disheveled appearance. All of these personality attributes can contribute to an intuitive sense of Beethoven's depth of thought, in particular concerning his music. Deep thought doesn't necessarily mean "better thought". Some people say that Beethoven did with his music all that was humanly possible, while Mozart divined his gifts from the gods. Perhaps, yet the intuitive impression I get of Mozart's personality, which carries over to his music, is one that does not approach Beethoven's depth of thought or even depth of spirit, with no implication that "deeper" is "better". It may, however, be more attractive to a given listener, in the sense of more thought-provoking, dependent upon the listener's own personality structure.