Turkish March in 4th Mvmt of 9th Symphony - What was Beethoven Thinking?

[Peter]

Never mind the quality, feel the width, Peter? Joking apart, for me 'structural weighting' is not solely about length.

Indeed (though it is an unprecedented and note worthy feature of this symphony) - I did also mention structure and form as well. In response to your other post, I do think that the 5th particularly is weighted towards the finale - but generally as Michael pointed out the classical symphony is weighted towards the first movement.

[Quijote]

Also, you have the ambiguity of modality in the opening measures; is it major or is it minor, etc.

I know what you mean Sorrano. But we must not confuse major/minor (tonality) with modality. Sorry to be pedantic, but you know me by now!

[Quijote]

Indeed (though it is an unprecedented and note worthy feature of this symphony) - I did also mention structure and form as well. In response to your other post, I do think that the 5th particularly is weighted towards the finale - but generally as Michael pointed out the classical symphony is weighted towards the first movement.

Also noteworthy for its length and complexity (chronologically speaking) was (is?) the 'Eroica' symphony, do you not think? As to the 5th, it is certainly 'weighted towards' the finale in that it provides that perfect example of 'fulfilment' in cyclical terms. As to the Pastoral (6th), I'm still not sure about it's weighting; it continues to intrigue me from that point of view (amongst others!).

[Quijote]

Yes, that's true. Audiences were used to long performances in those days, and it was hardly Beethoven's fault that it was such a cold night.

I blame Margaret Thatcher for that cold night (Cf the miners' strike and so on. Long live Arthur Scargill. And Tony Benn!). Sorry for the silly political reference, I couldn't resist it! A reflection of my 'profound but provocative wisdom' as Peter referred to it, perhaps? Or not.

[Michael]

Indeed (though it is an unprecedented and note worthy feature of this symphony) - I did also mention structure and form as well. In response to your other post, I do think that the 5th particularly is weighted towards the finale - but generally as Michael pointed out the classical symphony is weighted towards the first movement.

In most modern performances and recordings, the Fifth symphony is extremely finale-weighted, perhaps slightly more than Beethoven intended. It all comes down to the vexed question of the repeat in the scherzo which is hardly ever observed. We can blame Beethoven for this as it appears he never made up his mind about it. As a result, 90% of performances omit the scherzo repeat but leave in the repeat of the exposition in the finale. This causes a total imbalance as the scary C minor world of the scherzo has hardly had time to establish itself before it is blasted away by the long finale. It is victory without too much of a battle.
I have umpteen recordings of the Fifth but only one conductor, Karl Bohm, gets it right, in my humble. He omits the scherzo repeat but he also omits the exposition repeat in the finale, and the whole symphony is more balanced. The problem for me is that Bohm’s Fifth must be the most laid back version I have ever heard.
The ideal solution is to restore the scherzo repeat and then shriek C major to the heavens for as long as you like! (Well, you know what I mean.)

[al1432]

Other commentators - most infamously musicologist Susan McClary who hears the work as embodying 19th century male attitudes to women, with certain pasages expressing male rage verging on rape

I would suggest that the expression of "male rage verging on rape" is more in the mind of Ms. McClary than it was in LvB's. Freud would have had a field day with such a sexual interpretation. But yes, I am well aware that the music can be interpreted in many different ways. The communists used it, the nazis used it, etc etc, each for their own purpose.

Any musicological light you can throw on LvB's music would be most appreciated!
Al

[Peter]

Also noteworthy for its length and complexity (chronologically speaking) was (is?) the 'Eroica' symphony, do you not think? As to the 5th, it is certainly 'weighted towards' the finale in that it provides that perfect example of 'fulfilment' in cyclical terms. As to the Pastoral (6th), I'm still not sure about it's weighting; it continues to intrigue me from that point of view (amongst others!).

Yes, but what's your point? I don't think the Eroica is weighted towards the finale. The points I am making are that 1) Generally speaking classical works are weighted towards the first movement (there are exceptions such as the 5th and I agree with your uncertainty over the 6th)
2) The 9th represents a marked departure from previous models in that the finale acts almost as the 2nd part of the work - it is almost a symphony in itself (and certainly lasts as long as many classical symphonies).
3) That the 9th was unique, unprecedented and of all the symphonies had the greatest influence on later composers.

[Quijote]

Yes, but what's your point? I don't think the Eroica is weighted towards the finale. The points I am making are that 1) Generally speaking classical works are weighted towards the first movement (there are exceptions such as the 5th and I agree with your uncertainty over the 6th)
2) The 9th represents a marked departure from previous models in that the finale acts almost as the 2nd part of the work - it is almost a symphony in itself (and certainly lasts as long as many classical symphonies).
3) That the 9th was unique, unprecedented and of all the symphonies had the greatest influence on later composers.

Yes, the Eroica is not weighted towards the finale. My point : to point out that the Eroica was also 'unprecedented' in its time, in terms of length, structure, instrumentation, harmony and so on. Its impact was also far-reaching. The 9th is unique, clearly; we may argue the same for 3, 5, 6, 7.
I would like to come back to you about B's Ninth exercising the greatest influence on later composers.

[Peter]

Yes, the Eroica is not weighted towards the finale. My point : to point out that the Eroica was also 'unprecedented' in its time, in terms of length, structure, instrumentation, harmony and so on. Its impact was also far-reaching. The 9th is unique, clearly; we may argue the same for 3, 5, 6, 7.

Yes, but we're discussing the 9th! perhaps we should have a new topic on the symphonies? I'd be interested to hear your comments on the uniqueness of the 6th as well.

[Sorrano]

I know what you mean Sorrano. But we must not confuse major/minor (tonality) with modality. Sorry to be pedantic, but you know me by now!

Just to clarify, when I speak of tonality I speak of key centers, and when I speak of modality I speak of the arrangement of the scale within those centers. You might have a key center of C, for example, but then you would have options of various modes and I don't mean just major or minor. Dorian, locrian, aeolian, and etc. are foremost in my mind at the moment.

[Quijote]

Just to clarify, when I speak of tonality I speak of key centers, and when I speak of modality I speak of the arrangement of the scale within those centers. You might have a key center of C, for example, but then you would have options of various modes and I don't mean just major or minor. Dorian, locrian, aeolian, and etc. are foremost in my mind at the moment.

Thanks for the clarification, Sorrano. I know we're supposed to be discussing B's Ninth, but Bruckner's opening bars in his 4th and 9th are also wonderfully 'vague' as you mentioned : the magic of the open (perfect) 5ths (the interval of the 5th). I wonder sometimes if such 'gestures' represent some sort of shared 'metaphor' for listeners here in the west, especially when played on the horns. What could such 'imagery' be : hunting, wide open spaces, sunlight reflecting off snow-capped mountains ...?
Pure speculation, I know, but ...

[Quijote]

Gestures and 'metaphors'

Actually, I'm trying to develop an idea put forward by composer Trevor Wishart who thinks there may be 'universal sound symbols' that convey the same 'meaning' to listeners. For example, in one of his electroacoustic (acousmatic) compositions (Red Bird) he employs sounds of birds to represent concepts such as 'freedom' which he feels is a widely-shared metaphor. I would agree, but other commentators have pointed out that the 'symbol' is not universally perceived like that and that for some people birds are somewhat sinister (Cf Hitchcock).
What I do think holds true are the open fifths at the outset of B's Ninth and some of Bruckner's symphonies, but this is also down to the scoring and use of register (relatively high open 5ths in the horns/brass over tremolo lower strings); the feeling is of course one of 'spaciousness'. Is this a generally perceived view? And what does this tell us about 'musical space'? What do you think?

[Quijote]

I would suggest that the expression of "male rage verging on rape" is more in the mind of Ms. McClary than it was in LvB's.

Quite so Al1432. No more or less than 'despair' or 'struggle' in the mind of others (mine included, by the way). We hear 'struggle', McClary hears 'male rage'. Who is to say who is right? What did Lvb envisage? We cannot say. The point I'm trying to make is that we should be cautious in assuming all hear in a similar fashion (see my comments and yours above). Further, that we tend to accept the adjectives and descriptions so often used by 19th and early 20th century commentators (spiritual, pain, suffering, transcendent ...) and I sometimes just wish we could stop and re-evaluate them.

[Quijote]

And so to answer part of the question posed at the beginning of this thread, namely 'What was Beethoven thinking?" : I would give PDG's right arm to know. Wouldn't we all?

I would even renounce TC's winery to know, really I would. But I would not renounce TC herself. Oh no, not that, I have some honour left in my jaded soul ...

[al1432]

Further, that we tend to accept the adjectives and descriptions so often used by 19th and early 20th century commentators (spiritual, pain, suffering, transcendent ...) and I sometimes just wish we could stop and re-evaluate them.

This raises some very interesting ideas, Philip. We can redefine the adjectives we use, yes, but can we do away with them? The latter may not have been your point, but it does bring it to my mind. This would bring the wiring of the brain, and language, and music, all together for a really thorough examination of how we define music's effect upon us. Music does invoke feeling, thought, imagery in the mind of the listener. Can we be truly adjective-less with our mental processes regarding music? Sounds to me like that might be moving towards a sort of Buddha-like renunciation of the passions, which might leave us devoid of any need for music in the emotional sphere (since there would effectively be no more emotional sphere). I do understand your point about the specific adjectives and descriptions you mention: one person's pain may not be another's (or not quite exactly), and one person's spirituality may be quite something different to the next person, and all of these terms have a bit of a sentimental quality about them, in a way, yet I don't know what we'd replace them with, without going into that Buddha-space I mentioned before, or transliterating "music" simply to its mathematical correlates. Can the human mind appreciate music with all its intensity, emotion, etc., without being descriptive about it, or can music exist on a "purer" plane? (Ironically, doesn't this itself invite discourse about "absolute" versus "programme" music?). I'm glad you brought this up, it's a very interesting point, and one I really need to give some thought to. Just how are we "wired" when it comes to music, and what happens if we stop the "chatter" in our minds as we listen to it, and as we attempt to communicate its effect on us to other human beings? I know there are several books out there currently on music and the brain, none of which I've read as yet, but I may find myself more inclined to read one now.
Al