Turkish March in 4th Mvmt of 9th Symphony - What was Beethoven Thinking?

[Peter]

we should forget the military element and imagine instead the steady 'march' of the millions that represent the brotherhood of man, walking (marching?) toward a Utopian (dare I say 'socialist'?) state.

The ode was originally conceived by Schiller in 1785 to freedom, not joy (as Bernstein performed it in 1989) and was coming very much from enlightenment and masonic ideals. I suggest socialist 'utopia' had nothing to do with it, freedom from political oppression everything.

[Michael]

This may have been dealt with elsewhere, so apologies if I appear to be rehashing.
I think the prevailing view in the eighteenth century was that the first movement of a symphonic work should be the most complex because the audience would be more alert and receptive at the beginning of a piece. Beethoven even suggested that the “Eroica” be played as near as possible to the start of a concert because of its huge opening movements, etc.
The vast majority of Beethoven’s works are first-movement oriented. The piano sonatas and other chamber works usually end up with a rondo which is lighter in character than the rest of the work, while the more complex sonata-form is reserved for the opening movement. This is only a generalisation and there are numerous exceptions in later works such as the “Hammerklavier”.
I believe the composer is always conscious of the fact that his music is listened to in real time (or should be!) and cannot be left down and resumed like a novel. His/her audience is sitting and listening, often for a considerable length. Even a painting or a sculpture is not constrained by time and can be examined at the viewer’s own discretion. So, to optimise his work, the clever composer will give the opening movements the full intellectual weight of his art without compromising the remainder. How could anyone regard Beethoven’s scherzos as inferior works but, in a sense, they are less complicated than the opening movements.
I would say that Mozart was one of the first composers to place the emphasis on the last movement of a symphony. The opening of the “Jupiter” is as great as any of his last six symphonies, but the themes appear to me to be a bit simpler than usual, as if he were easing off on his audience in order to have them more alert for that fantastic fugal finale.
So, to get back to Beethoven’s Ninth, the first movement is, in a sense, more complex than the last – and why not? In spite of its merging of sonata-form, rondo, and even concerto, the last movement is based on a simple tune which is always recognisable through its variations. Perhaps he was, even at that late stage of his compositional life, still thinking of his audience?
However, in dealing with Beethoven, you cannot come to easy conclusions. Opus 130 originally ended with the “Grosse Fuge”, audience fatigue or not. But he did replace it ………….

[Peter]

Perhaps he was, even at that late stage of his compositional life, still thinking of his audience?
However, in dealing with Beethoven, you cannot come to easy conclusions. Opus 130 originally ended with the “Grosse Fuge”, audience fatigue or not. But he did replace it ………….

What about that mammoth Dec 22nd 1808 concert? Audience consideration didn't play a large part there!

[Michael]

What about that mammoth Dec 22nd 1808 concert? Audience consideration didn't play a large part there!

Yes, that's true. Audiences were used to long performances in those days, and it was hardly Beethoven's fault that it was such a cold night. But he did specify that the Fifth Symphony should open the concert as it was the most difficult work for a new audience.

[Peter]

Yes, that's true. Audiences were used to long performances in those days, and it was hardly Beethoven's fault that it was such a cold night. But he did specify that the Fifth Symphony should open the concert as it was the most difficult work for a new audience.

Yes Michael and I think you have a point in drawing attention to the main weight in the classical forms generally being placed on the first movement -however I think the 9th symphony is a marked departure from that.

[al1432]

Perhaps he was, even at that late stage of his compositional life, still thinking of his audience?
However, in dealing with Beethoven, you cannot come to easy conclusions. Opus 130 originally ended with the “Grosse Fuge”, audience fatigue or not. But he did replace it ………….

The Grosse Fugue, difficult enough to understand here in the 21st century, was likely all but unintelligible to audiences in the early 19th century. For which reason, whether LvB consented to remove it from the Opus 130 or not, the fact is that he wrote it and had it published, which says to me that he was not overly concerned with audience reaction, be it fatigue or otherwise.
Al

[al1432]

Yes Michael and I think you have a point in drawing attention to the main weight in the classical forms generally being placed on the first movement -however I think the 9th symphony is a marked departure from that.

Peter, I'm not sure how you mean "the main weight". In the case of the ninth, the opening movement is one of despair, struggle, conflict, all the way to the almost diabolical sounding swirlings of the last measures, while the 4th mvmt. is an expression of personal and perhaps even cosmic joy. Do you mean by "weight" the "theme" of the music as I've described above, or something else?
Al

[Peter]

Peter, I'm not sure how you mean "the main weight". In the case of the ninth, the opening movement is one of despair, struggle, conflict, all the way to the almost diabolical sounding swirlings of the last measures, while the 4th mvmt. is an expression of personal and perhaps even cosmic joy. Do you mean by "weight" the "theme" of the music as I've described above, or something else?
Al

I was referring to the classical forms in general that tend to place the main drama and thrust of musical argument in the 1st movement with a lighter, more relaxed finale. Of course that is a huge generalisation and there are exceptions. In the case of the 9th I think Beethoven really arrives at the symphony in 2 parts (which of course influenced Liszt and Mahler) with the finale (part 2) forming a summation of the previous movements, and in this sense it has assumed an unprecedented importance.

[Sorrano]

I was referring to the classical forms in general that tend to place the main drama and thrust of musical argument in the 1st movement with a lighter, more relaxed finale. Of course that is a huge generalisation and there are exceptions. In the case of the 9th I think Beethoven really arrives at the symphony in 2 parts (which of course influenced Liszt and Mahler) with the finale (part 2) forming a summation of the previous movements, and in this sense it has assumed an unprecedented importance.

Don't forget the 5th Symphony in this context. Even the rhythmic 3 shorts, one long are prevalent in the finale. While the 1st movement is certainly very dramatic, it cannot compare to the conclusion. And then, what about the 6th symphony?

[Quijote]

Peter, I'm not sure how you mean "the main weight". In the case of the ninth, the opening movement is one of despair, struggle, conflict, all the way to the almost diabolical sounding swirlings of the last measures, while the 4th mvmt. is an expression of personal and perhaps even cosmic joy. Do you mean by "weight" the "theme" of the music as I've described above, or something else?
Al

Hello al1432. Whilst I may concur with your choice of nouns describing how you experience the 1st movement (despair, struggle ...), it must be pointed out that this is not necessarily how all listeners respond to the work. Other commentators - most infamously musicologist Susan McClary who hears the work as embodying 19th century male attitudes to women, with certain pasages expressing male rage verging on rape - may not interpret the work as we do, and so I feel we should try to avoid making a priori assumptions.

As to 'conflict', this is I feel inherent to the dialectics of sonata form, which is all about 'centres of tonal gravity', and indeed how sonata form 'works'. Part of why we feel there to be this feeling of conflict that you describe in the 1st movement of the Ninth in particular is (in my view; I don't like being categoric) Beethoven's 'avoidance' of using the dominant key, emphasing instead the tonal area of B-flat (the flattened sixth, a major third down from D) and for me seems to 'push against' what we have normally come to expect in sonata-allegro form. I also tentatively suggest that this relationship of the third (e.g. D-B flat) is fundamental to B's writing (cf the Hammerklavier, Piano concerto 3 [1st movt. C minor, 2nd movt. E major and so on) and would be worth exploring further.

As to your question about 'weight', I think Peter has aptly summed it up, and I too made a similar point above. The issue of 'structural weighting' is also especially pertinent in the late quartets, so perhaps we can discuss that too at a later point, if you wish.

[Peter]

Don't forget the 5th Symphony in this context. Even the rhythmic 3 shorts, one long are prevalent in the finale. While the 1st movement is certainly very dramatic, it cannot compare to the conclusion. And then, what about the 6th symphony?

Well none of those finales are comparable to the 9ths in terms of construction or length which lasts almost as long as the 1st and 2nd movements combined - this is unprecedented in the classical symphony and clearly there has been a seismic change in approach to form and scale that was to influence Mahler in particular.

[Quijote]

In the case of the 9th I think Beethoven really arrives at the symphony in 2 parts (which of course influenced Liszt and Mahler) with the finale (part 2) forming a summation of the previous movements, and in this sense it has assumed an unprecedented importance.

Yes, I think you have it right there, Peter : the symphony does indeed strike us a bipartite work. In light of this comment ('structural weighting'), what do you feel about the 5th and 6th symphonies (perhaps even the 7th)?

[Quijote]

Don't forget the 5th Symphony in this context. Even the rhythmic 3 shorts, one long are prevalent in the finale. While the 1st movement is certainly very dramatic, it cannot compare to the conclusion. And then, what about the 6th symphony?

Good question Sorrano, which I also asked Peter before I read your posting. As a fellow Bruckner fan, I feel sure you and I could discuss sonata form as used by our dear Anton : I'm thinking primarily about his use of so-called 'distorted sonata form'. More on this later - I need time to order my thoughts.

[Quijote]

Well none of those finales are comparable to the 9ths in terms of construction or length which lasts almost as long as the 1st and 2nd movements combined - this is unprecedented in the classical symphony and clearly there has been a seismic change in approach to form and scale that was to influence Mahler in particular.

Never mind the quality, feel the width, Peter? Joking apart, for me 'structural weighting' is not solely about length.

[Sorrano]

As to 'conflict', this is I feel inherent to the dialectics of sonata form, which is all about 'centres of tonal gravity', and indeed how sonata form 'works'. Part of why we feel there to be this feeling of conflict that you describe in the 1st movement of the Ninth in particular is (in my view; I don't like being categoric) Beethoven's 'avoidance' of using the dominant key, emphasing instead the tonal area of B-flat (the flattened sixth, a major third down from D) and for me seems to 'push against' what we have normally come to expect in sonata-allegro form. I also tentatively suggest that this relationship of the third (e.g. D-B flat) is fundamental to B's writing (cf the Hammerklavier, Piano concerto 3 [1st movt. C minor, 2nd movt. E major and so on) and would be worth exploring further.

Also, you have the ambiguity of modality in the opening measures; is it major or is it minor, etc.