Turkish March in 4th Mvmt of 9th Symphony - What was Beethoven Thinking?

[Roehre]

I wonder if the 'Turkish March' is really as original as you think. The use of 'martial music' by Beethoven has its precedents, notably The Glorious Moment, op. 136 (with its alla turca section that includes triangle, cymbals and bass drum) and of course the infamous 'Battle Symphony'.

Back then to the Turkish music in finale 9 (despite the very interesting discussion on this thread).

So far I missed one observation about this march: it is an afterthought, basically the last part to be composed and added to the score of the finale.

[gprengel]

So far I missed one observation about this march: it is an afterthought, basically the last part to be composed and added to the score of the finale.

Really? This is interesting! How do you know that? What all belongs to this "afterthought"? Also this fantastic fugato following the Turkish marsh?

Gerd

[Roehre]

Really? This is interesting! How do you know that? What all belongs to this "afterthought"? Also this fantastic fugato following the Turkish marsh?
Gerd

Gerd,
Have a look at http://beethoven.staatsbibliothek-be...n/9/4/3/2.html
the finale, Autograph 2 [bl.116-136], blatt116r.
Here the Alla marcia starts. 116v shows the first 10 bars.
Blatt 116r shows 3 bars, followed by two which have been crossed out, followed by two further bars. The first bar following the crossed-out bars is the tenor solo "Froh,Froh" following the Turkish March.
The Turkish March itself was inserted on the location of the two "deleted" bars.
As this Staatsbibliothek site shows, the march itself is on three pages which are now in Paris. These wouldn't fit within the autograph score of finale 9, as these are not oblong ("landscape"), but "portrait" sized pages.

R.

[gprengel]

Thank you, Roehre, very interesting! But what Beethoven inserted here was just an instrumental introduction of the Turkish march, for the tenor singing is also based on this March melody. I am a bit astonished that Beethoven originally started the singing without an introduction.

... and how good to scroll through these great pages of the score of the link you gave!!! What a great work! I cannot understand why people had
(or have) problems with this great movement.

Gerd

[Chaszz]

The Turks were 17th, 18th and 19th century Europe's great enemy and fear, and also a subject of fascination. The interest and attention we pay today to the Chinese, Japanese, Korean and other Asian cultures were directed in those earlier centuries to the 'oriental' Turks. Also the issue of Greek independence from Turkey was a hot one, which even got the poet Byron involved in the hostilities. Therefore, whether or not it was currently the up-to-the-minute fashion in the 1820s to use Turkish musical sections or not, Beethoven was reflecting the larger era in general with this. Fascination with Turkey shows up in literature and art as well as music all during this long period. Ingres and Delacroix, the two great rivals of early/mid 19th c. French painting who differed in so many ways, both painted multiple Turkish subjects. In Ingres' case, this was in violation of his professed hatred of Romanticism and devotion to strict Western classicism and the church. It resulted in some of his greatest paintings, seething with Romanticism and sexuality under polished their classical surfaces.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...ique_The_G.jpg

http://www.abcgallery.com/I/ingres/ingres79.html

http://mini-site.louvre.fr/ingres/1....newHeight==768

http://www.neoclassic.com/wp-content...rkish-Bath.JPG