Turkish March in 4th Mvmt of 9th Symphony - What was Beethoven Thinking?

[al1432]

I came across the following in the NYTimes Dec. 24, 2007:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/24/op...pagewanted=all

Googling the subject, I also came across:
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2006/200...er/021363.html

Seems to be quite a few references online to Beethoven's introduction of the Turkish March in the 4th movement of the 9th Symphony, and no small amount of consternation on account of it. And now, I am confused myself. Has anyone come across this issue before? And if so, what is anyone's opinion of it?

[PDG]

There is just so much self-depracation in Beethoven. I think the Turkish fashion had gone out with Mozart, but Beethoven's humour got the better of him, and the "carnival" aspect of which you speak is about spot on and in keeping with his general feeling of artistic freedom and cocking a snook. The 9th is the greatest symphony of all time, but what spurred Beethoven on to finish it (its gestation period was unusually long) was not "his art" but the promise of £25 from the Royal London Society...

[Peter]

I came across the following in the NYTimes Dec. 24, 2007:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/24/op...pagewanted=all

Googling the subject, I also came across:
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2006/200...er/021363.html

Seems to be quite a few references online to Beethoven's introduction of the Turkish March in the 4th movement of the 9th Symphony, and no small amount of consternation on account of it. And now, I am confused myself. Has anyone come across this issue before? And if so, what is anyone's opinion of it?

Yes it is the last movement that has always come in for the greatest criticism yet paradoxically it is the movement best known and loved! Honestly I think the march is splendid and highly original in its context.

[Michael]

I can't find the actual book (in fact I can't find anything this morning, including my own head) but the march section of the finale was described as Beethoven taking the music "outdoors". The beginning of the march does seem to suggest an army of musicians in the distance and gradually coming closer. The music has been described as "military" but why can it not be a huge outdoor celebration? The music had reached such a point of ecstacy with the mighty "Gott!" that he had to bring it down to earth for a while before venturing into the sublime again with the "Seid umschlungen". (Pedants: ignore my spelling). Nobody quite knew how to mix the sacred and profane like our jolly old B.

[Peter]

I think the march is highly inspired with a wonderful counter melody in the tenor - nobody criticised Haydn for using cymbals, triangles and tambourines in his symphony no.100.

[Sorrano]

The musicologist where I studied music taught that one of the reasons for using the Turkish March was to give the audience something familiar to hear with all the newness of a choral symphony. The very nature of the work was so vastly different than anything that had come before; even the first three movements are unlike anything else that Beethoven had composed. The Turkish March, then would represent something that would enable the audience to get a hold of that was somewhat familiar.

[Peter]

The musicologist where I studied music taught that one of the reasons for using the Turkish March was to give the audience something familiar to hear with all the newness of a choral symphony. The very nature of the work was so vastly different than anything that had come before; even the first three movements are unlike anything else that Beethoven had composed. The Turkish March, then would represent something that would enable the audience to get a hold of that was somewhat familiar.

Nice idea Sorrano, but I don't buy it - after all there was nothing much familiar about having a Turkish march in a symphony! I don't think for one moment Beethoven was thinking along anything other than artistic lines - the march (which is simply a variation of the theme) provides an almost operatic interlude before the double fugue and a dramatic contrast to the preceding episode.

[Sorrano]

I tend to agree, Peter, with you on that. I feel that the movement is a theme and variation format and the march, as you say, is a variation. If I had my notes from the class I might be able to communicate the idea a bit better, but it's been a few years and I don't recall them specifically.

[al1432]

the march (which is simply a variation of the theme) provides an almost operatic interlude before the double fugue and a dramatic contrast to the preceding episode.

I tend to agree with you on this, Peter. After reading those articles I naturally played the movement in order to refresh my memory, and to my ears at least, it seems like the march, even IF its intent was "militaristic" (a big "IF"), is ultimately totally subsumed by the ensuing return in full force of the "joy" theme. Seemed to make perfect sense to me, not as the introduction of a military agenda, but as a contrasting of issues within the human condition.

[PDG]

I think everyone's about half right with this. The march is a devastating puncturing device, breaking up the emotional overload before we are subconsciously primed for even more intensity.

Michael said it - LvB is almost laughing as we stand and watch in awe...

[lvbfanatic]

and what about those first crashing chords?

IMHO the entire 9th rests entirely on the massively solid foundation of its first movement. the rest of the music is no match in contrast to the surging dynamics of the first movement.

Does anyone have anything solid to say about those opening crashing chords... and that thunderous musical explosion in the middle of the first movement?

Can anyone possibly fathom the imagery described in that music?

[DavidO]

I think everyone's about half right with this. The march is a devastating puncturing device, breaking up the emotional overload before we are subconsciously primed for even more intensity.

Michael said it - LvB is almost laughing as we stand and watch in awe...

That puts it well: a devastating puncturing device. The fugue that follows is merely ... devastating.

Opuses 76 & 113 also employ Turkish style & orchestration, with piccolo & percussion popular in the Turkish bands. I think even the König Stephan incidental music contains a segment in that Turkish style. Here's a hunch I have (without any basis of evidence): the Turkish mode would have been popular later in the Rhineland than in the cosmopolitan center of Vienna. Could Beethoven have been fondly looking back to his Bonn days?

[Peter]

IMHO the entire 9th rests entirely on the massively solid foundation of its first movement. the rest of the music is no match in contrast to the surging dynamics of the first movement.

Does anyone have anything solid to say about those opening crashing chords... and that thunderous musical explosion in the middle of the first movement?

Can anyone possibly fathom the imagery described in that music?

I agree about the mighty first movement but I wouldn't be so dismissive of the other movements!

[gprengel]

To me Beethoven's use of a "military" march here makes very much sense, for the words used here speak of a "hero who went out to win", so what would fit better here??
I love this march but especially I love it because it opens the door to this awesome fugatto which follows! Again another variation of the theme of joy. But what a dramatic gesture, it makes me tremble!!!

Gerd

[Gurn Blanston]

That puts it well: a devastating puncturing device. The fugue that follows is merely ... devastating.

Opuses 76 & 113 also employ Turkish style & orchestration, with piccolo & percussion popular in the Turkish bands. I think even the König Stephan incidental music contains a segment in that Turkish style. Here's a hunch I have (without any basis of evidence): the Turkish mode would have been popular later in the Rhineland than in the cosmopolitan center of Vienna. Could Beethoven have been fondly looking back to his Bonn days?

The Turkish style was also very popular in Vienna and had been for a long time. Mozart was among many composers who employed it. This was due to the siege of Vienna by the Turks many years earlier. It represented exoticism to the nth degree as well as the military connotations. Thus the "Rondo: alla Turca" in keyboard sonata K 331, and indeed, "The Abduction from the Seraglio".



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