Historical performances of the 9th Symphony

[euphony131]

Originally posted by Peter:
. . . such things as non observance of repeats go beyond interpretation into falsification of the score.

Peter,

I recently read that many composers themselves didn't expect the repeats to always be observed. I also understand that Beethoven left out the repeat for the premiere of his own 5th symphony. So maybe "falsification" is too harsh a word.

Finally, where's all the "Romantics" when ya need them? There's far too much Mahler/Berlioz bashing goin' on. Come on guys, you can't tell me you could do better than a Mahler or Berlioz symphony! A little respect would be nice.

Personally, I really enjoy the recordings of guys like Furtwangler and Stokowski, two men that many will sneer off as being "overly romantic." But there's interpretative powers going on there that many of today's conductors seem to lack, hence you have many orchestras sounding the same. Everybody wants to be a "literalist" and just play the notes, rather than going beyond the notes for Meaning.

Here's something from Schoenberg's book, "The Great Conductors" that shows there's actually lots of room for Romantic interpretation: "If Beethoven's ideas as a conductor paralleled his ideas as a pianist -- and, of course, they would have -- he would have called for a great deal of freedom in phrase and rhythm. Rubato effects would be included."

Yes, I know B. left behind metronome markings and I'm all for an adherence, but not a BLIND adherence.

Besides, I understand that it's possible to follow a metronomic instruction while still playing around within phrases. But then, I'm not a musician so could definitely use some clarification here. My question is: Isn't it possible to adhere to metronome markings while still fluctuating tempo within small groups of notes? So overall, the passage follows the beat, but there are changes here and there. Sorry, if I'm not making much sense here. I'm doin' the best I can.


[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 07-09-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by euphony131:

Peter,

I recently read that many composers themselves didn't expect the repeats to always be observed. I also understand that Beethoven left out the repeat for the premiere of his own 5th symphony. So maybe "falsification" is too harsh a word.

Finally, where's all the "Romantics" when ya need them? There's far too much Mahler/Berlioz bashing goin' on. Come on guys, you can't tell me you could do better than a Mahler or Berlioz symphony! A little respect would be nice.

Personally, I really enjoy the recordings of guys like Furtwangler and Stokowski, two men that many will sneer off as being "overly romantic." But there's interpretative powers going on there that many of today's conductors seem to lack, hence you have many orchestras sounding the same. Everybody wants to be a "literalist" and just play the notes, rather than going beyond the notes for Meaning.

Here's something from Schoenberg's book, "The Great Conductors" that shows there's actually lots of room for Romantic interpretation: "If Beethoven's ideas as a conductor paralleled his ideas as a pianist -- and, of course, they would have -- he would have called for a great deal of freedom in phrase and rhythm. Rubato effects would be included."

Yes, I know B. left behind metronome markings and I'm all for an adherence, but not a BLIND adherence.

Besides, I understand that it's possible to follow a metronomic instruction while still playing around within phrases. But then, I'm not a musician so could definitely use some clarification here. My question is: Isn't it possible to adhere to metronome markings while still fluctuating tempo within small groups of notes? So overall, the passage follows the beat, but there are changes here and there. Sorry, if I'm not making much sense here. I'm doin' the best I can.

As far as I am aware Beethoven intended his repeats to be observed and when they are the effect is so much better - the proportions of the 1st mov Eroica need that repeat!

I didn't bash the music of Mahler or Berlioz, I leave that to their respective forums, I was referring to the over top literary comments made by Schumann and Berlioz in regard to Beethoven's music - an example of such ramblings is Berlioz on the storm from the 6th 'Then the trombones burst forth, the thunder of the kettledrums becomes redoubled in violence, no longer merely rain and wind, but an awful cataclysm, the universal deluge - the end of the world.' Need I say more? !!


Of course you have to go beyond the notes, but to do that you first have to observe the score faithfully - there is a dangerous line between interpretation and distortion which many conductors cross far too frequently. Playing Allegro con brio without the brio is distortion not interpretation!

You are right in your description of rubato -it mereley stretches time, but what you take you must give back so that the phrase itself is in time. I'm not saying that the music should be played like a metronome, but rubato has to be handled very skillfully or else it becomes mere affectation.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

You are right in your description of rubato -it mereley stretches time, but what you take you must give back so that the phrase itself is in time. I'm not saying that the music should be played like a metronome, but rubato has to be handled very skillfully or else it becomes mere affectation.

This is it in a nutshell. B's metronome figures are important as they indicate the underlying nature of the opening bars from which the remainder can be judged in relation, but they need not be adhered to for every bar, as Beethoven himself was aware by his own words, for the music needs to sing and this cannot be done at a robotic tempo. Use of rubato has to be very subtle with Beethoven, so that it sounds natural and you are not particularly aware of it as such.

Other than the scherzo of the 5th, I can't recall B having any second thoughts about repeats, and in this case it seems his last words indicate its inclusion.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[dice45]

Originally posted by Peter:
Do these guys observe the repeat of the exposition in the first movement?

Obviously when it comes to interpretation it is a matter of personal choice but such things as non observance of repeats go beyond interpretation into falsification of the score.

Peter,
you remind me on a young lady, a girlfrined of my sister, who was claiming to be a pianist and who refused to accept Solomon as a valuable Beethoven pianist because, according to her, "he does not strictly stick to the score."

For the record: Today I was at the record shop and tried out Jordi Savall's Eroica, I did make it through the 1st mvmnt but then refused to listen further. I compared the timing and also eventual missing repeats with Toscanini, Kleiber, Furtwängler.

For stopwatch fanatics:
The recorded seconds for the mvmnts seem to be objective and Toscanini and E.Kleiber have about the same time for one lap as Jordi Savall; Furtwängler is slower and Michael Schumacher considerably faster, and as the F1 driver, no conductor took the short cut.

The guy who runs the record shop prefers Furtwängler, I prefer Kleiber, Toscanini, Leibowitz. In fact, I bought the E.Kleiber CD although (maybe because) I own 1st pressings of the 3rd and 5th performed by Kleiber. I did not buy the Savall CD.
Your hint did not convince me (nor did your reply full of generalities when I asked for specifics).

I follow my practice not to talk another person's preference down, so I keep the reasons for my preference private.


However, I did not like the same nasty practice that my teachers played on me frequently: always when I was about to win a point against them (and I was not after winning, I was after the point), they showed me how incompetent or not-yet-qualified I still was and of course, teacher is always right and has means to show this.

Peter, you know well I am no musician and cannot read a score, so I could not answer your question whether a conductor omits some bars between bar N and bar N+M. You will not play this game on me again.

Bye.

Bernhard

[Peter]

Originally posted by dice45:
Peter,
Peter, you know well I am no musician and cannot read a score, so I could not answer your question whether a conductor omits some bars between bar N and bar N+M. You will not play this game on me again.

Bye.

Bernhard

I don't know what game you think I'm playing - I only asked a very important question with regards to repeats. You don't need to be a musician or to be able to read a score to hear a repeat. If you think that repeats are trivial, you may wonder why Beethoven himself asked that the repeat in the Eroica 1st movement be observed so as to preserve a better balance. You asked me for my preferences and I told you, that you don't like them is your choice - you obviously have a preference for the Romantic school of Beethoven interpretation as well as old recording techniques - you can't lose it just because I don't share that enthusiasm. I don't criticise your views, I just don't share them. My preference is for a more authentic approach and since that is exactly what Savall gives us, I might ask why you don't like authentic Beethoven as opposed to the Romantic idea of Beethoven? Savall's recording is about as near to Beethoven's original intentions as you can get.

let me quote from the Cd notes - "What - apart from the considerable increase in the number of musicians are the consequences of the modernisation of musical instruments in the 2nd half of the 19th century and the widespread use of metal or synthetic strings (as opposed to gut)?

It is obvious it has brought about a radical change in conceptions of technique, sound, timbre, balance, dynamics, articulation etc.. which in turn have brought about a change in our conception of the spirit of this music. Without wishing to question the legitimacy of performances on modern instruments, refusing these differences and using the same type of orchestra for all composers seems to be a serious impoverishment."

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

Sorry Peter,
I do not like either Jordi SAVALL's Beethoven. It is my taste, jst my taste.

Regarding the scores we use now, there are no more ""revisited" by other people : we do have to reinvent the music. B. himself wrote that when a nuance was evident he was not writing it...The legato is like cream, when there is too much, it is nauseating.

But I prefer a mistake, or sometimes a little bit of rubato and "something" lively in an "exécution" than a flat recording as we have now too much on the market with the prétext there are "only the notes". The notes without feeling can also be boring, even with Beethoven.

B. also told something very interesting : "I do not know why my piano music sound so strange to me, especially when it is ill-played".

Claudie.


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Claudie

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
Sorry Peter,
I do not like either Jordi SAVALL's Beethoven. It is my taste, jst my taste.

Regarding the scores we use now, there are no more ""revisited" by other people : we do have to reinvent the music. B. himself wrote that when a nuance was evident he was not writing it...The legato is like cream, when there is too much, it is nauseating.

But I prefer a mistake, or sometimes a little bit of rubato and "something" lively in an "exécution" than a flat recording as we have now too much on the market with the prétext there are "only the notes". The notes without feeling can also be boring, even with Beethoven.

B. also told something very interesting : "I do not know why my piano music sound so strange to me, especially when it is ill-played".

Claudie.

I've never advocated a just the notes policy - of course it is what lies behind the notes that counts, but I find that conductors such as Furtwangler go beyond what is acceptable - i.e they impose a Romantic interpretation on a Classical Symphony, and this was due to the Wagner/Mahler legacy which they grew up with. Of course Beethoven should never be played absolutely rigid, but the rubato used has to be different to that used in Romantic works. It has to be subtle and very skillfully handled - you simply can't have huge changes in tempo between first and second subjects in a movement as was often the case with the Waldstein for example.

I find the Savall recording totally refreshing an exhilerating - clarity is evident with previously unheard inner parts revealing themselves. I find the dislike of this excellent recording puzzling, since it is as near to what Beethoven intended as possible - the instruments, phrasing, tempi are all as Beethoven intended, so I suppose the detractors of this version would have disliked the Eroica had they been present at the first performance (which I doubt was up to the standard on this CD)!

That Beethoven's piano works were badly played in 1800 when he made that remark is not surprising since few would have possessed the technique to do them justice.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-14-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
Sorry Peter,
I do not like either Jordi SAVALL's Beethoven. It is my taste, jst my taste.

Well, I suspect this recording is nearer to Beethoven's Beethoven than those you will have typically heard. Stray too far beyond this and it is not really Beethoven that is satisfying your taste, but someone else.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Claudie MICAULT]

Each people has his own idea of B.'s music :
but is somebody of you in direct contact with B. himself to say his prefered version is B.'s Beethoven ?
If yes, you are very lucky.
But I remember that B. himself told to a pianist (Dorothea von Hartmann) that he liked very much how she played his sonatas... even if it was NOT what he would have done himself....
Music is not uniformity, it is the reason for which we can like the same symphony conducted by different conductors, or sonatas played by different pianists, and also different composers.
I do not treat you badly telling my opinion and insist : it is just my opinion.
But, of course, if not beeing of your opinion is to be "non-beethovenian", you must prefer that I leave this forum !

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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
Each people has his own idea of B.'s music :
but is somebody of you in direct contact with B. himself to say his prefered version is B.'s Beethoven ?
If yes, you are very lucky.

One does not need a psychic link with the master, but some of the obscenities I have heard that claim to be the Eroica must have B turning in his grave. You don't need to be a genius to read Italian, which apparently many conductors are incapable of.

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:

But I remember that B. himself told to a pianist (Dorothea von Hartmann) that he liked very much how she played his sonatas... even if it was NOT what he would have done himself....
Music is not uniformity, it is the reason for which we can like the same symphony conducted by different conductors, or sonatas played by different pianists, and also different composers.

I think this reference was to just one sonata on a particular occasion. However I doubt B would have liked his 'con brio' allegro's played 'molto moderato', which is the issue with the Eroica and most of B's other movements of this nature. The score is simply being ignored in these circumstances, whether one likes the result or not. I prefer to hear the score as it is, for better or worse. Then If I do not like the result I can say 'I do not think B is to my taste with this piece'. This is preferable to drastically changing the music to suit ones taste. I have yet to say these words however.

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:

I do not treat you badly telling my opinion and insist : it is just my opinion.
But, of course, if not beeing of your opinion is to be "non-beethovenian", you must prefer that I leave this forum !

If you have bought the Savall recording, play it a few times, you will get used to it and then you will have trouble returning to your older idea of the piece. Who is treating you badly? Whose idea do you think it was to provide the site with Primo Amore - and whom you think I had in mind with this idea? Methinks thou dost protest too much!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Claudie MICAULT]

I am sorry . the last phrase if far beyond my english understanding... but my italian is perfect and I can read a score and also make some comparisions. I do not criticize Savall : I do not like it, it is quite a difference.

Anyway, dear Rod, you are too perfect for me...

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Claudie

[Claudie MICAULT]

I am sorry . the last phrase if far beyond my english understanding... but my italian is perfect and I can read a score and also make some comparisions. I do not criticize Savall : I do not like it, it is quite a difference.

Anyway, dear Rod, you are too perfect for me...

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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
I am sorry . the last phrase if far beyond my english understanding... but my italian is perfect and I can read a score and also make some comparisions. I do not criticize Savall : I do not like it, it is quite a difference.

I would be interested to know why you do not like it. I would not say it is perfect, but it is a big step in the right direction regarding the interpretation of the piece.

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:

Anyway, dear Rod, you are too perfect for me...

Too perfect? Moi? It appears I have not been forgiven. Believe it or not this is not some personal ego trip for me, I take the issue very seriously, apparently more seriously than many professionals (big names included). When you go to a Beethoven concert or buy a CD it is a total lottery as to what you are going to hear, more so than with any other composer. Frankly, for me this is not good enough. If musicians can't work out how a piece should be performed after 200 years then something is seriously wrong. When to adagio of the 9th can last 11 or 20 minutes long, as it can be in performance, both cannot be acceptable, there is enough information in the score and with research to come to an almost concrete conclusion. Surely reading music cannot be that difficult.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-16-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
But, of course, if not beeing of your opinion is to be "non-beethovenian", you must prefer that I leave this forum !

I sincerely hope you don't Claudie!

I think we have to realise that when it comes to interpretation people hold very strong and differing views - it is a very sensitive topic and one that usually brings out the worst in musicians!

I agree Claudie that you can't say a piece MUST be played only one way - this defeats the whole point of music. Interpretation means what it says - the performer interprets the composer's intentions and conveys them to the audience. If we are going to be totally inflexible, then logically we would conclude that no one should perform Beethoven's sonatas at all, since Beethoven was the only man who could ever have given a truly accurate rendition - that of course is nonsense.

My preference (or perhaps the phase I'm in at the moment) is for period orchestral recordings - though these too vary in their approach.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I sincerely hope you don't Claudie!

I think we have to realise that when it comes to interpretation people hold very strong and differing views - it is a very sensitive topic and one that usually brings out the worst in musicians!

I think my earlier remark was construed as a personal attack on my Handelian ally, although the (admittedly cumbersome) attack was in fact aimed at conductors. I knew I should have stuck the obligato 'with respect...' in there somewhere. Too late!