Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Musings on genius old and new, & the song

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Musings on genius old and new, & the song

    Did you ever, in the past, hear people speak of someone like Bob Dylan as a genius? It would make me laugh because if you consider the actual amount of music he "composed", when compared to someone like Beethoven, he really composed very little. No matter how good you might think Dylan's records sound – I do like most of them and there should be no doubting his importance in the history of modern "pop/rock" music - all he actually had to do was come up with the guitar chords, the melody of the sung part and the words. OK, sometimes he did play the piano part, but mostly it was just guitar. The words were perhaps the most difficult part.

    The rest of all his music, and the music of all other bands or solo singers, was created by all the musicians who would play whatever seemed to "go with" what Dylan, or whoever, was singing and playing. Rare exceptions to this rule were when producers would organise “session musicians” to play for pop singers but even then it might only be the string parts that were written down.

    Sure, the Bob Dylans or Stevie Wonders or any of the dozens of other "geniuses" of the modern music world may give some kind of overall direction to the other musicians who play in their bands or on their records. At times they may even tell them exactly what and how to play. But how can that, and the combined length of their recorded music, even begin to compare with the facts that people like Beethoven wrote down every single note for every type of instrument, and the combined length of melodies in all those parts might come to hundreds, even thousands, of hours.

    By way of comparison, if you add up the length of the vocal melodies on the records of pop/rock celebrities, what might you have? Hmmm... Each CD about 45 minutes? That would be - if ten albums were recorded over ten years, say, (and not many modern artistes have recording careers that long-lasting) - 450 minutes or a little over 7 hours, of which a good proportion is usually instrumental parts played and invented by the other musicians.

    Doesn’t this pale into insignificance compared to the output of a Beethoven. And yet, it is the accepted standard for many a modern “genius”.

    Even the sheet music for any modern song contains only the relatively simple transcription for piano, the words and markings for the various, but usually quite limited, guitar chords. Is that transcription done by the "composer"? Not likely. The record company takes care of all that. And since the piano part would be the same for all verses, you can be sure that if the song was written out in full, all the music for the first verse would simply be copied and pasted for all the other verses using computer software. No chance of a Diabelli variation there… Keep it as simple as you can so more very average pianists can play it, leading to more sales.

    Jazz music kept the classical faith during those few decades of the big band era when arrangements were done for individual instruments. But smaller groups became the norm, and you only need to look at the jazz music “bible”, the Real Book, with its transcriptions of repertoire standards, and you will learn that it shows only the main melody and the chord notations written above it. It must be said that many of these jazz chords were a great contrast to - and much more complex than - the “dummed down” tonic, dominant and sub-dominant that were the standard fare of rock’n’roll and the later and present pop eras.

    If you wanted to play those jazz chords, you really did need to know your stuff. And of course, by the time the Real Book appeared, jazz had become again what it had been in its beginning: mainly an unwritten genre. Just like the giants, Beethoven and Bach - among others of the classical era - you had to be able to work it out as you played it: by improvising. You weren’t supposed to need all the written melodies, and harmony? It was up to the players to figure that out. That took talent, and you might have to do it over hundreds of performances during your career, and if you could not improvise, it could become very boring. So I can understand and accept the label of genius for a Charlie Parker or Louis Armstrong, even if their recorded output did not amount to hundreds of hours.

    But the song is still king. This puzzles me. You can understand how the technology of the times created the popularity of the three minute song, firstly on 78rpm records, But even after the advent of the 33rpm “long-playing” record with its “twenty continuous minutes per side” possibility, the short-song format thrived, reinforced by the hit song equivalent of the 78: 7” 45 rpm singles.

    You no longer needed that great musicianly skill yourself - or alternatively, live musicians - to hear the music of your choice in your own home, as long as your choice had been recorded. And during the lifetime of the long-playing vinyl record, quite a few progressive pop and jazz groups did experiment with longer group compositions, sometimes filling a whole side with one piece.

    However, that was by far the exception rather than the rule and the three minute song has prevailed, with most “albums” still having ten to twelve songs.

    Why is it that in this more modern era of the 700 mg compact disc - and even longer DVD format - the song is still king?

    Perhaps people on dance floors only have the stamina for three minutes at a time before sitting down for a drink. Does anyone have any other answers or suggestions as to why this is so?

    #2
    Firstly to be fair I don't think we can measure genius by quantity - if a composer produces just one masterpiece it is still a work of genius. When it comes to most pop music quite frankly you'll generally find more harmonic invention (and less repetition) in a simple Bach minuet. Certainly the harmonies, melody and rhythm are pretty basic. As to song, few can match the poetry and inventiveness of Schubert or Wolf and many of these also last barely a few minutes.
    'Man know thyself'

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by AlexOv View Post
      Did you ever, in the past, hear people speak of someone like Bob Dylan as a genius? It would make me laugh because if you consider the actual amount of music he "composed", when compared to someone like Beethoven, he really composed very little.
      Since the same observation can be made about Albert Einstein... namely, Einstein composed far less music than Beethoven... Louis Pasteur... Pierre and Marie Curie... Eiffel... Goethe... Gauss... Da Vinci... Michelangelo... Glenn Gould... etc...

      And since Beethoven composed far less music than Mozart...

      and so on and so forth...

      one is left with the impression that AlexOv is not really positioned to define what it is that the term GENIUS really means.

      Must it be? It must be!

      Comment


        #4
        AlexOv's post is deserving of positive comment, and not the dismissive misunderstanding shown above. Dylan did indeed speak to a generation of impressionable 1960s pre-hippies and beyond, and his lyrics are embedded in the times which he both absorbed and reflected. He is a giant in popular culture. He remains a powerful, symbolic figure for certain social and radical movements, and many musical contemporaries were influenced by him (including The Beatles).

        It is correct that quantity is not as relevant as quality. Schubert's songs played complete from beginning to end stretch to 45 hours. That is just bettered by Bing Crosby - but the difference is that Crosby spent 60 years recording his, and didn't actually write any of it!

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks to you, PDG. I was offended by what you describe as the dismissive understanding. Some people could learn to treat others with a little more respect. I have spent several days working on a suitable response-using Word so I can get the phrasing etc just right and will post it soon. Quantity is not, as you say, as important as quality, but I think I can establish that with genius you always have the two go hand in hand.

          Comment


            #6
            Good man, Alex. How are you voting in your election today?

            Comment


              #7
              Well, I wouldn't like to say really who I voted for because I once had a letter, critical of the gov't, published in a newspaper and the letter included the suburb in which I lived. As my surname is uncommon, it was easy for someone to find my house and put garbage on my car. I wouldn't like that to happen again, even if it seems unlikely through this forum.... Just kidding, I voted for the team which won. How is it that you , in England, know of our political situation here? Is it on your tv news?

              By the way, I saw another thread in which people were discussing your avatar. Reminded me of my childhood... Every Saturday afternoon, we used to stay at our grandparent's long and narrow house while my father went to play clarinet, flute and saxophone in the orchestra of a theatre in the city centre. It was from him, and my mother, that I have my present love of LvB. And every week these grandparents used to buy English comic books for my sisters and I. I read "Eagle", with its stories of Dan Dare and the ancient Romans. Ah, those were the days! I guess you also read Eagle?

              Comment


                #8
                I appreciated AlexOv's comments on this, and have wondered much whether or not my pop heroes like the Beatles or Brian Wilson could, in all seriousness, be compared to someone like Beethoven or Schubert. And, though I also appreciated the perspectives from the posted responses, I believe the critiques on the "quantity" are unnecessary in this case. The justification of a title such as "genius" would arise from a combination of many things, and I think the balance between quality and quantity is probably the most important part. This balance, in all fairness, would be different for everyone, but to dismiss quantity altogether would be a grave error, in my personal opinion. The main point that I inferred from Alexov was that people like Bob Dylan have neither the quantity nor the quality of work to truly earn the title of "genius" alongside the greats of all time. To put it in a metaphor, Stevie Wonder is great at table tennis, poker, and monopoly; and Beethoven was great at soccer, football, baseball, and basketball. The solution of thought is, perhaps, to think of pop music as another art form altogether, and, within that form, Bob dylan perhaps could be called a genius -but for clearly different reasons and talents.
                ________
                RVF400
                Last edited by Moonscore; 01-19-2011, 02:42 AM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Moonscore View Post
                  To put it in a metaphor, Stevie Wonder is great at table tennis, poker, and monopoly; and Beethoven was great at soccer, football, baseball, and basketball.
                  Interesting metaphor! To say the least...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by AlexOv View Post
                    How is it that you , in England, know of our political situation here? Is it on your tv news?
                    Yes, we've had television in the UK since, ooh...at least the 1960s, don't you know? They're predicting colour transmissions can begin some time in the future. How exciting!

                    I wanted Kylie to win the election but she didn't stand (sniff...).

                    (Please forgive sarcasm - I'm bleary-eyed on a Sunday morning...).
                    Last edited by PDG; 11-25-2007, 10:17 AM. Reason: Forgot the bit about Kylie...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by AlexOv View Post

                      By the way, I saw another thread in which people were discussing your avatar. Reminded me of my childhood... Every Saturday afternoon, we used to stay at our grandparent's long and narrow house while my father went to play clarinet, flute and saxophone in the orchestra of a theatre in the city centre. It was from him, and my mother, that I have my present love of LvB. And every week these grandparents used to buy English comic books for my sisters and I. I read "Eagle", with its stories of Dan Dare and the ancient Romans. Ah, those were the days! I guess you also read Eagle?
                      Alex, I LOVE The Eagle, and have a near-complete collection (1950 - 1969). I am in touch with the son of one of its founders, Chad Varah (still with us at the age of 92). Chad also founded The Samaritans. The Eagle was an intelligent paper for post-WWII kids which was embraced by everyone: parents, teachers, politicians, The Church. Universal approval and universal appeal. They don't make 'em like that anymore.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by PDG View Post
                        Interesting metaphor! To say the least...

                        lol. Yeah, I've become almost infamous on some radiohead boards for pulling sub-par comparisons out of my bottom at a moments notice.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by PDG View Post
                          Alex, I LOVE The Eagle, and have a near-complete collection (1950 - 1969). I am in touch with the son of one of its founders, Chad Varah (still with us at the age of 92). Chad also founded The Samaritans. The Eagle was an intelligent paper for post-WWII kids which was embraced by everyone: parents, teachers, politicians, The Church. Universal approval and universal appeal. They don't make 'em like that anymore.
                          Wow, you are a lucky fellow! And thank you, Moonscore, for your sensible comments. Maybe in this age, we just don't really have such giants, so what lesser people we do have, get called giants as well. Maybe we humans need to think we do have intellects equal or greater than those of our past.

                          And now on a more serious note, I will do as I threatened, ie add yet more comments about the first two responses to my original post.

                          First to Peter: I appreciate your point that someone could produce one masterpiece and still be regarded as a genius. It is possible. But do you have any examples? I think you will find that the type of genius which produces great art - or science - doesn’t exist for only a short time in a person; it will express itself over a lifetime. With genius of this nature, I believe you do get quality and quantity together. Take Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa and The Last Supper. Even without those pictures, he would be recognized as a genius because he produced many other paintings, not to mention his visionary work in engineering, etc. With Schubert, if his songs were collectively considered as one masterpiece for which we would call him a genius, it is also true that he wrote many much longer and more complex pieces of intertwining melodies for many instruments. He could not resist the urge to create. Genius will out…

                          Next, to Ateach ASC: In my post about genius, I put forward some opinions, adding what seems to me to be reasons for them. I am just thinking and sharing my thoughts. In comparing LvB with a Bob Dylan, I am not comparing him to Mozart or Einstein.

                          You can twist my logic, if you wish, and claim that because Einstein wrote less music – less quantity - than Beethoven, I am saying he must therefore be a lesser genius. Ho, Ho, Ho! But, at music, it is true: Einstein was definitely not a genius. The converse is also certainly true: Beethoven wrote less about physics – if anything at all - so Einstein was more of a genius, at physics, but only at physics. Why different people of equally high IQ’s are not equally smart at the same things, and why they seem to be exceptionally gifted in one thing only, is a matter of great interest, but not for this forum… Our brilliant human brains!

                          I am not claiming that geniuses in any field can be validly compared to each other in terms of the quantity of their work. Yes, it is not only quantity. Quality is more important, ultimately. But can you tell me who in your list of luminaries had only one or two brilliant works of any sort - be it buildings, plays, paintings, sculpture, whatever - and was rated a genius by peers or posterity?

                          I don’t know the histories of all of them but I think you will find that in historical cases of “genius”, we do have a huge body of work at which to marvel, or at least the knowledge that there was such work. In the case of Einstein, even though his celebrated theory of relativity – with the famous E = mc² formula - apparently contains little mathematics, but he did work on physics with great passion throughout his adult life with the pursuit of the elusive “theory of everything” and the teaching of his ideas to a younger generation. Not just quality there… Eiffel, who most people only know from the Tower in Paris, devoted his adult lifetime to the architecture of large metal structures and engineering. Michelangelo, like Einstein, composed no symphonies but, like all geniuses of whom I am aware, he did have a new vision and created many monumental works, setting new standards to inspire and move us all. That is what one type of genius does.

                          Did I try to define genius? No, but could that be a definition of genius to satisfy you? If not, perhaps you provide another definition for us? If you can tell us about the geniuses of the arts and sciences who did not produce work in quantity as wellas quality, please elucidate. I’m listening. Maybe we all are.

                          Bearing in mind Peter’s remark about the limited harmonic invention, etc, in pop music, the difference between a Beethoven and a Dylan could not be more stark. The former was a brilliant performer and improviser, on a very complex instrument, when younger, and composed many thousands of interweaving melodies in a vast array of musical forms over a long period, changing those forms in the process, to the point that others stopped composing in the old ways. He raised the bar, as they say; deafness or no deafness.

                          On the other hand, modern “geniuses” like Bob Dylan invent single line melodies for maybe 10-12 verses and choruses each year, which typically repeat, with very minimal internal variation, within a typical three minute cycle matches them, for the most part, with simple chords structures played on a guitar or keyboard. The rest of the work, musically, is done by others.

                          Ateach ASC, you are welcome to disagree with me, but surely you don’t need to put me down for believing the Beethovens and Dylans of the world are quite different.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            AlexOv - I agree with the main thrust of your argument that someone such as Dylan is no Beethoven. It is just the criteria you originally used that I find suspect, namely quantity. Now if that was how we should measure genius Telemann would surely come out as the greatest composer of all with around 3000 compositions! Bach and Mozart easily outdo Beethoven. My comparison with Schubert was perhaps more appropiate since I was comparing song with song and to my mind Schubert displays a wealth of invention in just a few bars! Chopin does the same in his Mazurkas which I think are some of the greatest 'miniatures' written.

                            You asked for some examples well Bizet and Carmen spring to mind - yes he wrote a few other things, but his output was not great, yet the originality of Carmen had great influence at the time and it still ranks amongst the most popular operas. Another example would perhaps be Max Bruch, who though writing a fair amount only produced one really well known work - the violin concerto no.1.
                            'Man know thyself'

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Great to see that, basically, we are in agreement. The Dylans are no Beethovens and very occasionally, I know readily concede, some composers do emerge who do produce masterpieces. However, are either Bizet or Bruch generally regarded as a genius? Telemann,as we all now know, would hardly have had time to breath, except between notes and on Sundays for Mass!

                              I am now bowing out of this post unless something fantastic happens. I don't normally spend so much time thinking and writing about the subject of music... Better to listen to it!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X