Period piano

[dice45]

Originally posted by Peter:
...

I do agree that it is strange that Steinway dominates the modern concert platform and has done so for many years. There are other wonderful firms such as Bechstein or Bosendorfer (my preference, though I possess a Bluthner).

Hello Peter and Claudie,
did you know that Bechstein is derogatorily called Blech-Stein over her in Germany?
"Blech" is the word for sheet metal and the Bechstein's sound is quite bright, like a stone smashing into sheet metal .

I once attended to a concert where a Boesendorfer Imperial was used (AIWI, this model having a few additional bass keys and AICS, it had quite a big body). I always liked Boesendorffer best, but this one, this is my all-time favourite piano.

Greets,
Bernhard


[This message has been edited by dice45 (edited 06-30-2001).]

[Joy]

Last year I visited a Beethoven Museum (the largest one here in North America) and they had an exact replica of Beethoven's fortepiano circa 1795. It sounded good to me and I was excited that I got to play it for a while as they allow vistors to use it as long
as the students aren't using it at the time for upcoming concerts.
Joy

[dice45]

Originally posted by Peter:
Since B's sonatas were never intended for the concert hall, it makes me wonder why large venues are used for such recitals - the intimate nature of such music is lost.
I envy you your Bosendorfer Claudie, I suspect it is the best modern instrument for Beethoven.

Hello Peter and Claudie,

Both Arthur Schnabel and Edwin Fischer were known to stubbornly refuse to perform in audiences too big or bad sounding.

Schnabel always refused to play a piano sonata in audiences of more than -- say -- 450 seats.

Greets,
Bernhard

[Rod]

Originally posted by dice45:
Hello Rod,

I know Paul Badura-Skoda's play quite well, he plays a wonderful Mozart, just gorgeous. But it is a bit hard to imagine for me he excels to the same extent playing Beethoven, maybe the early sonatas. I heard him once playing Beethoven, it was good. But far below his Mozart play.
However, one of his teachers, Edwin Fischer, was an extraordinary Beethoven pianist; he may have learned a lot there.

Greets,
Bernhard

Badura Skoda is good with the late sonatas as well. I uploaded an MP3 of the allegro of op111 by P B-S, using an original Graf of 1820, for this site a while ago and it met with universal approval.

PS I'm a quasi-audiophile. I know the stuff, but am not prepared to fork out all my hard earned cash to get the best audiophile hardwear.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Last year I visited a Beethoven Museum (the largest one here in North America) and they had an exact replica of Beethoven's fortepiano circa 1795. It sounded good to me and I was excited that I got to play it for a while as they allow vistors to use it as long
as the students aren't using it at the time for upcoming concerts.
Joy

Good for you joy. 2 years ago I 'played about' with an 1815 Viennese model in a Hungarian museum that was in perfect condition - at great risk to myself as this was strickly not allowed! The action was incredibly light compared to any modern piano. It sounded exactly as I had hoped & expected.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
Good for you joy. 2 years ago I 'played about' with an 1815 Viennese model in a Hungarian museum that was in perfect condition - at great risk to myself as this was strickly not allowed! The action was incredibly light compared to any modern piano. It sounded exactly as I had hoped & expected.

Good for you too, Rod. I'm glad you 'went for it' and had the experience even if it was a bit risky. I can imagine how tempted you must have been. (I would have been too).
I was also pleased with how this replica I played sounded as well.
Joy

[dice45]

Hello Rod,

Originally posted by Rod:
Badura Skoda is good with the late sonatas as well. I uploaded an MP3 of the allegro of op111 by P B-S, using an original Graf of 1820, for this site a while ago and it met with universal approval.

P B-S is a serious and honest pianist and if he plays LvB on a period piano, I really get interested. Thank you for the hint.

I do not refuse to listen to original instruments, I just require an interpretation of a certain level; playing the piece right is way more important ot me that using the right instrument. Of course, is both can be had, wonderful.

I get unanimous preference from my buddies for the JSBach keyboard works played on harpsichord instead on a Steinway. Even those who were declared fans of Glenn Gould or A.Gavrilov before now cannot decide between W.Landowska and D.Moroney as best performer. This is because both harpsichordists play artristically on an extraordinarily high level, they just play it right, yet they play it different. Glenn Gould who was slightly preferred to Andrej Gavrilov before is not a topic anymore.

Interestingly, Landowska uses a monstrous Pleyel instrument (cannot be called "period" at all) and Moroney plays a new period-style instrument: each of them chose the instrument suiting to epress himself best.

PS I'm a quasi-audiophile. I know the stuff, but am not prepared to fork out all my hard earned cash to get the best audiophile hardwear.

No offense meant! You do right in not spending your money on retail ware! Mostly it is a beautiful housing and moderately working electrojunk inside.

All my audio buddies are music fanatics like me and all of them meanwhile build their own audio gear because they can shape their preferred sound. Good sound also is a matter of taste. So with DIY audio, one is privileged to decide oneself what sort of sound to prefer and later, how to realize it.
One has the choice to take an old drawer as a housing and build a gorgeous tube amp into it, choosing and paying for the right components (expensive!!) instead of paying for a beautiful housing an a faint dream. One can set priorities and refuse to pay for unimportant things. One can get a device serving as a musical instrument instead.

Each of my buddies has audio equipment working right and making music to his personal taste, None of them, even the most wealthy one, could afford to buy as retail what he built for himself.

Would you have guessed all of us are into tube amplifiers and three of us are into transformer-coupled tube amps? Pre-WWII circuitry! The newer not always is the better.

Hardwear: this typo is utter truth as far as phono cartridges are concerned. Hard to buy and worn after 600 to 1800 hours of play. You taught me a new nasty audio pun word!

Greets,
Bernhard

[Claudie MICAULT]

Dear Rod,

It was a 6 octaves PF and they played on it
- Chopin valses, B. für Elise, and Consolation n° 3 from Liszt...

Dear Bernhard : I know about the Blech-stein story... And I have a very good old black recording of Edwin FISCHER in the 5th of B. with Fürtwängler conducting : a must !
Do you know the little book FISCHER wrote about music and his studies ?

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Claudie

[dice45]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
...
Dear Bernhard : I know about the Blech-stein story... And I have a very good old black recording of Edwin FISCHER in the 5th of B. with Fürtwängler conducting : a must !
Do you know the little book FISCHER wrote about music and his studies ?

Hello Claudie,
yes, I know both, the 5th PC with Fischer/Furtwängler and Fischer's little book; I am happy to have both in my collection. Both are true gems, agreed.

Hello Rod,

today (I used up my last holi-day for shopping) I also was in the record shop to check out some LvB Ugorsky recordings. As this guy is playing LvB idioamtically correct and with appropriate emotion, he is not popular, he doesn't sell, his recordings consequently have been cancelled from the list of available CDs. Pop music rules.

So I tried to make atleast something of it and listened to a recording performed by Elly Ney on the original Graf pianoforte once owned by LvB and exhibited in the Beethoven house in Bonn.

Although Elly Ney is considered to be an extraordinary Beethoven specialist of the past, I never liked her play, too dark, too romantic, too diffuse. Her ritardandos are a caricature to me, it kills the pace and the big bows.

So it was with this recording of the op.111, which I have listened to uncounted times with different pianists. Elly Ney played it (to my taste) excentric in a way not healthy for this wonderful sonata, consequently it broke into pieces. I would not claim these pieces were not Beethoven, Ney certainly has a grasp for Beethoven.

But the sound of the Graf piano and Elly Ney's considerable technique and power gave me the best period piano experinece I ever had and I begin to understand your preference for period pianos for Beethoven, I see this can fit wonderfully. My attention strolled away from the music several times and I found myself listening to the wonderful instrument instead to Beethoven's op.111 .

Hinthint: my prefered pianist for the op.111 again is Solomon. He played it on a modern, contemporary piano but his piano sound appears to me closer to Beethoven's Graf pianoforte than any other pianist I know.
BTW, he plays the sonata way more transparent and clear than Ney on the Graf PF which is an extraordinarily transparent and clear sounding instrument. This is really something.

Maybe it is worth a try for you.

Greets,
Bernhard

[Rod]

Originally posted by dice45:

Hello Rod,

today (I used up my last holi-day for shopping) I also was in the record shop to check out some LvB Ugorsky recordings. As this guy is playing LvB idioamtically correct and with appropriate emotion, he is not popular, he doesn't sell, his recordings consequently have been cancelled from the list of available CDs. Pop music rules.

So I tried to make atleast something of it and listened to a recording performed by Elly Ney on the original Graf pianoforte once owned by LvB and exhibited in the Beethoven house in Bonn.

Although Elly Ney is considered to be an extraordinary Beethoven specialist of the past, I never liked her play, too dark, too romantic, too diffuse. Her ritardandos are a caricature to me, it kills the pace and the big bows.

So it was with this recording of the op.111, which I have listened to uncounted times with different pianists. Elly Ney played it (to my taste) excentric in a way not healthy for this wonderful sonata, consequently it broke into pieces. I would not claim these pieces were not Beethoven, Ney certainly has a grasp for Beethoven.

But the sound of the Graf piano and Elly Ney's considerable technique and power gave me the best period piano experinece I ever had and I begin to understand your preference for period pianos for Beethoven, I see this can fit wonderfully. My attention strolled away from the music several times and I found myself listening to the wonderful instrument instead to Beethoven's op.111 .

Hinthint: my prefered pianist for the op.111 again is Solomon. He played it on a modern, contemporary piano but his piano sound appears to me closer to Beethoven's Graf pianoforte than any other pianist I know.
BTW, he plays the sonata way more transparent and clear than Ney on the Graf PF which is an extraordinarily transparent and clear sounding instrument. This is really something.

Maybe it is worth a try for you.

Greets,
Bernhard

It is interesting that you have found a recording using B's own Graf. I was unaware that one existed. However I am not surprised at your analysis of the Ney's performance, such 'mannerisms' are all to common in Beethoven performances - such messing around with the tempo should not be at the expence of destroying the underlying momentum. From the many varieties of fp I have heard I would say the Graf is the best single brand to use for B's music. It's sound is very distinctive and instantly recogniseable. B himself typically preferred a Streicher where possible, but I have not heard an original example, they must be extremely rare. Melvyn Tan uses a Streicher copy but his B recordings using it on EMI all suffer from 'cold' accoustics so I'm not sure what it really sounds like!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-07-2001).]

[dice45]

Originally posted by Rod:
It is interesting that you have found a recording using B's own Graf. I was unaware that one existed. However I am not surprised at your analysis of the Ney's performance, such 'mannerisms' are all to common in Beethoven performances - such messing around with the tempo should not be at the expence of destroying the underlying momentum.

Mannerism: you hit the nail right on the head!!

Besides that, a photo of E.Ney is on the CD cover: the expression of her face is that of an old, mighty witch with extraordinary power and an even more extraordinary EGO.

Although I know about LvB's Leidstolz (pride while suffering) and must presume he was a very modest but also a demanding man and self-aware of his qualities, I do not believe LvB had an oversized ego: I cannot believe a man busy with admiring himself could write such music.

What I observed: if someone performing LvB's music obviously has an oversized ego, performing LvB's music doesn't work.

I refuse to give examples, apart from E.Ney (she is a famous Beethoven performer and I thought it would be valuable if other inmates of this forum feel confused about her Beethoven play and read some backup here). But my worst example playing the op.111 still is in the catalogue while Anatol Ugorsky is not.

What utterly annoys me is that a performer having so much access to Beethoven (Elly Ney in this case) destroys Beethoven's music by his/her ego. The failure happens on a rather elevated level, however it is a failure.

From the many varieties of fp I have heard I would say the Graf is the best single brand to use for B's music. It's sound is very distinctive and instantly recogniseable. B himself typically preferred a Streicher where possible, but I have not heard an original example, they must be extremely rare. Melvyn Tan uses a Streicher copy but his B recordings using it on EMI all suffer from 'cold' accoustics so I'm not sure what it really sounds like!

Interesting LvB preferred the Streicher. All I can say to acoustics and recording technique is that the Holy Grail of music recording was on this Earth during late mone and early stereo era, but obviously has been lost. Few recordings come close to the work of Victor Olof, Robert Fine, Leslie Chase, Lewis Layton, Kenneth Wilkinson (for Jazz recording, I should not forget Rudy van Gelder); they knew how to choose and position few apropriate microphones to get the best out a a place's acoustics. Without having to fix it later in the mix.

During the 80ies, there was a certain Jean-Francois Pontefract who made breathtaking recordings of chamber music, mostly baroque style, mostly on period instruments.

Today: "creative" hampering with the multichannel mixing console, sorcerer's apprentices ...

Some rare exceptions exist; one I got acquainted with yesterday evening: my friend Manfred visited me and brought a CD (JSBach: 6 cello suites, Anner Bylsma) he bought on my recommendation and it turned out that instead of the CD recording of the 90ies it was a re-issue of the utterly rare vinyl recording from 1979 which I own and prefer to all other performances.

HintHint, to all who are into JSBach's cello suites played on a period cello but with a straight bow, go and get it!!, the order code is Sony Classical SBK 61811 and SBK 61812. The recording sounds stunningly natural and open (on vinyl) and the music:
well, formally those suites are dance music and Bylsma plays it in a way you can imagine to dance to it, with the most logical phrasing I ever heard; oh, before I forget it: cantabile and with a sound making Jascha Heifetz envious in his grave!!

Greets,
Bernhard

[Rod]

Originally posted by dice45:

Hardwear: this typo is utter truth as far as phono cartridges are concerned.
Greets,
Bernhard

This was no typo!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[michael790]

Regarding the post concerning actual period pianos from Beethoven's time: surely these have lost the "original" sound as all pianos deteriorate over time unlike violins which tend to improve. A copy of an original instrument built to the exact specifications would more likely represent the original sound of Beethoven's pianos as it would have "aged"onlya few years like the pianos which Beethoven played. A 200 hundred year old piano is not representative of the type of piano which Beethoven played.

[Rod]

Originally posted by michael790:
Regarding the post concerning actual period pianos from Beethoven's time: surely these have lost the "original" sound as all pianos deteriorate over time unlike violins which tend to improve. A copy of an original instrument built to the exact specifications would more likely represent the original sound of Beethoven's pianos as it would have "aged"onlya few years like the pianos which Beethoven played. A 200 hundred year old piano is not representative of the type of piano which Beethoven played.

I have often considered points such as this myself, but why would you say whilst a violin improves, a piano must deteriorate? Logically one could say that these original pianos, when new, would perhaps have sound more like the modern reproductions than the 200 year-old models. There are many reproductions that sound very good, but the very best I heard have been 200 years old. Therefore once could say that, at least with these Viennese models, that pianos too improve over time, or alternatively, the old craftsmen new something that the current ones do not.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-09-2001).]

[Claudie MICAULT]

It is very easier to maintain a violin than a piano. And I think there are better specialists in the violin camp for there is a real tradition (from the Amati, Stradivarius etc...). The violonists are going easily to the repairer (because it is not heavy to carry !!!) so maybe it is one reason for which the violins resist better with age....
Beethoven's Graf was recently repaired and sounds fantastic.

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Claudie