Period piano
Am I alone in rethinking my preferences as regards Beethoven's piano sonatas? For years, I loved the performances of Kempff(both sets), Gilels and Richter and they remain superb pianists, but since I obtained the Claves box set of the complete sonatas on various period pianos, the aforementioned artists are gathering dust on the shelf. I cannot reconcile the cloudy bass and overlong decay of a modern piano with the sharp attack and enlightening clarity of the pianos which Beethoven used and for which he intentionally composed. I would be very interested in knowing if any other contributors are facing a similar dilema. This is my first post here so I thank you all in anticipation of your replies. I would also like to add my congratulations to the person or people who run this magnificent site.
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No Micheal, you are not alone. Trust me on this one.~ -
Steinway forever!!!!!!!
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We shall no doubt hear today from the patron saint of period pianos himself - St.Rodney of Graf!!Originally posted by michael790:
Am I alone in rethinking my preferences as regards Beethoven's piano sonatas?
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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You are not alone in your preference, I've been promoting fortepianos for years, mentioning often the points you yourself have identified - that they are better suited to Beethoven is not a matter of taste, it is a matter of fact.Originally posted by michael790:
Am I alone in rethinking my preferences as regards Beethoven's piano sonatas? For years, I loved the performances of Kempff(both sets), Gilels and Richter and they remain superb pianists, but since I obtained the Claves box set of the complete sonatas on various period pianos, the aforementioned artists are gathering dust on the shelf. I cannot reconcile the cloudy bass and overlong decay of a modern piano with the sharp attack and enlightening clarity of the pianos which Beethoven used and for which he intentionally composed. I would be very interested in knowing if any other contributors are facing a similar dilema. This is my first post here so I thank you all in anticipation of your replies. I would also like to add my congratulations to the person or people who run this magnificent site.
I have the Claves set myself and dozens of other cds of Beethoven music played on the fortepiano. However, compared to these other disks the Claves set is at best average! I don't particularly like the close mics in these Claves recordings - the sound stage is too big, and some of the accoustics sound very dry to me. Then there is also the issue of the constant 'additions' to the score inserted at every opportunity! Also the tempi are very slow in general compared to what I would expect. Still, it's better than Gilels and Richter just for the pianos alone! Paul Badura-Skoda released a set, which I have, of the complete sonatas using various fps that is on average far superior, but alas is no longer in the catalogue.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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Thanks for giving me the opportunity to relate a nice piece of anti-Steinway propaganda...Originally posted by Chris:
Steinway forever!!!!!!!
I have recently been reading a book of Schnabel's memoirs were he discusses the piano and the Company itself.
Firstly regarding the piano he says of its tone that when he wanted the instrument to sing like a bird, it sung like a tenor, and instead prefering the Bechstein brand in this respect. This indicates the different nature of the tone of the Germanic and US instruments - the former having, as I would expect, a brighter more focused sound. He also critisises Steinways bizarre double action, something I myself have wondered about.
Now about the Company itself S states that in 1923 he wished to undertake a tour of the US and asked Steinway if they could supply him with instruments. Steinway would only agree to this if not only he used their brand alone in the US, but their brand alone anywhere in Europe as well!!!!! As a result Schnabel did not tour the US between 1923 and 1930. What a most wretched company Steinway is.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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I somehow knew we would not be disappointed on this topic
I do agree that it is strange that Steinway dominates the modern concert platform and has done so for many years. There are other wonderful firms such as Bechstein or Bosendorfer (my preference, though I possess a Bluthner).
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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Now now Peter, no need for those rolling eyes...Originally posted by Peter:
I somehow knew we would not be disappointed on this topic
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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Personnally I have heard a concert recently with two very good students of my man playing Beethoven, Chopin and Liszt in a very big hall (modern one... as I hate !). They both played on a Blüthner, then on a period piano (I did not asked the date of the piano, but it was one with the "touches" a little bit narrower as those of a modern piano and it was difficult to play for the pianists who were not use to that... and one had such big hands....). The effect of changing piano was rather "bizarre" for the public too. The "accoustique" was not the best for the period piano, and so the Blüthner was there to make the success.
I think that period pianos, in concert, need an adapted concert-hall . not to big, and possibly with a classical "décor".
By recordings, it is another thing : I enjoy both versions of piano (modern or period one) and I hate the "dictature" of Steinway. If my man can choose a Bechstein, a Blüthner or another firm he always avoid STEINWAY.
In the SALLE CORTOT in Paris there are one STEINWAY and a Blüthner : when performing all the "old" teachers of the ECOLE NORMALE DE MUSIQUE-ALFRED CORTOT of PARIS choose the Blüthner, but all the students want always the "Steinway"... for they think it is the best mechanic or sound ! Pity.
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ClaudieClaudieComment
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We have a BOSENDÖRFER at home, a KAWAI, and a very good unknown ROTH and JUNIUS.
To teach singing I use the KAWAI, to play my man use the BOSENDÖRFER but he study his technic on the ROTH and JUNIUS.
Naturally the BOSENDÖRFER is the best, but it is difficult to find one in concert now...
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ClaudieClaudieComment
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Since B's sonatas were never intended for the concert hall, it makes me wonder why large venues are used for such recitals - the intimate nature of such music is lost.Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
The "accoustique" was not the best for the period piano, and so the Blüthner was there to make the success.
I think that period pianos, in concert, need an adapted concert-hall . not to big, and possibly with a classical "décor".
I envy you your Bosendorfer Claudie, I suspect it is the best modern instrument for Beethoven.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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Was B played on the fortepiano? If so which piece? Could you identify if the fp was a 5 octave or larger 6/6.5 octave instrument? You are correct about the keys, they are smaller, ie typically shorter and narrower than modern ones. These instruments were designed for smaller accoustics, but if people still judge their sound by modern standards then they will miss the whole point of the exercise. Even in a good accoustic a Walter will never sound anything like a Steinway - the whole idea is that the Steinway's sound is not so well suited for this music.Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
Personnally I have heard a concert recently with two very good students of my man playing Beethoven, Chopin and Liszt in a very big hall (modern one... as I hate !). They both played on a Blüthner, then on a period piano (I did not asked the date of the piano, but it was one with the "touches" a little bit narrower as those of a modern piano and it was difficult to play for the pianists who were not use to that... and one had such big hands....). The effect of changing piano was rather "bizarre" for the public too. The "accoustique" was not the best for the period piano, and so the Blüthner was there to make the success.
I think that period pianos, in concert, need an adapted concert-hall . not to big, and possibly with a classical "décor".
By recordings, it is another thing : I enjoy both versions of piano (modern or period one) and I hate the "dictature" of Steinway. If my man can choose a Bechstein, a Blüthner or another firm he always avoid STEINWAY.
In the SALLE CORTOT in Paris there are one STEINWAY and a Blüthner : when performing all the "old" teachers of the ECOLE NORMALE DE MUSIQUE-ALFRED CORTOT of PARIS choose the Blüthner, but all the students want always the "Steinway"... for they think it is the best mechanic or sound ! Pity.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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The forte piano has a very good feeling when you play it or hear it. The modern pianos of our time are too metal sounding. Which is good. I use a Boston piano at my parents house and I love hearing Beethoven on it. I went to concert a long time ago with my dad to hear one of his former piano teahers give a recital on a forte piano. I have to agree with the people on that love forte pianos. I also have to agree with the people who love modern piano's too. There is some music that sounds good on a forte piano and some that do not. Beethoven sounds good on a real forte piano not some replica of one.Comment
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And Beethoven's certainly does, which should not be surprising since he wrote the music for these instruments in the first place!Originally posted by joel fienen:
There is some music that sounds good on a forte piano and some that do not.
Some replicas sound quite accurate. Most of the authentic models have been reconditioned to some extent, but I agree the very best have been originals from what I have heard. Most problematic is the voicing, sometimes the treble is softened to produce a more modern sound, but usually the result is most unsatisfactory.Originally posted by joel fienen:
Beethoven sounds good on a real forte piano not some replica of one.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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Hello Rod,
hey, you are using terms strictly reserved for audiophiles! Are you an officially examined and graduated audiophile?Originally posted by Rod:
... these Claves recordings - the sound stage is too big, ...
Youp dare to use such terms?
Where is your diploma? Show it first!!
I know Paul Badura-Skoda's play quite well, he plays a wonderful Mozart, just gorgeous. But it is a bit hard to imagine for me he excels to the same extent playing Beethoven, maybe the early sonatas. I heard him once playing Beethoven, it was good. But far below his Mozart play.Paul Badura-Skoda released a set, which I have, of the complete sonatas using various fps that is on average far superior, but alas is no longer in the catalogue.
However, one of his teachers, Edwin Fischer, was an extraordinary Beethoven pianist; he may have learned a lot there.
Greets,
Bernhard
Greets,
BernhardComment
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