Conductors

[Serge]

I haven't been here too much of late; just really busy right now, is all.

I do want to ask about your favorite conductors, though. Up till several years ago, I never realized, first of all, the range and scope a singe work could take if given to a number of different conductors. When I was young, I used to wonder if a piece was actually being rewritten by conductors. The strength of the brass or the emphasis of the winds here and there from one conductor to the next could make the piece entirely different. That was then, of course; now I just wonder about how a conductor finds his sound, and how much a role the orchestra plays in developing that sound.

Would anyone care to tell us who their favorite conductors are, past or present, and why? Are there any famous conductors who don't deserve half the praise they get. Any unknown ones who deserve more limelight?

Also: I remember being told in Gr. 9 music class that until early last century (or so), the theme to B.'s 9th (the Ode) was taken at half-speed, so it dragged out and sounded more regal or something. I think my teacher said that someone eventually discovered that the time signature was read wrong. Was that a conductor? Is there any truth to this?

[Peter]

Hard to have any overall favourite as the field is so wide. I presume you mean favourite Beethoven conductors which narrows it a bit! It then depends on the particular work as a conductor can be great with one of the symphonies and lousy with the rest.
Generally speaking my favourites are Gunter Wand (2-6), Carlos Kleiber (5&7), George Szell (7) and Karl Bohm (6). With HIP, Bruggen and Harnoncourt. Jordi Savall's Eroica is a must! Gardiner's Mass in C is one of the best (though I don't like his symphonies) and Klemperer for the Missa Solemnis (again I don't like his symphonies!)

I'm not sure about your comments on the 9th, though I do seem to recall reading something similar once.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-06-2001).]

[oboe_15]

The first time that I saw 'Swan Lake' in New Zealand, The St. Petersburg Ballet came to perform it. The Orchestra that accompanied them was the 'Christchurch Symphony Orchestra' and apart from there amazing technical ability they were conducted better than I thought Humanly possible! However, I just looked through my programme of the Ballet and it does not say who conducted them! That is because they would have had a different Orchestra at each different section of New Zealand.

However, when I went and saw Prokofievs' 'Cinderella' I had to eat my own words, that was the BEST BALLET I HAD EVER ATTENDED! This time it was the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra, and they were fantastic, the contrasts of sound were not over the top (as some conductors like to do) and the mix was almost perfect. The end of the Ballet shows Prokovievs' true nature with the rarely heard "Curtain Music" As you all would know, Prokoviev was not the nicest of fellows and was quite disturbed. And as you hear the nice perfect cadence at the end of the Ballet (which I still wonder how Prokoviev managed to do) the curtain closes and then there is this deep dark and gloomy piece that I just love (And cannot get the notation for - grrrrr). Showing his true nature, and Iasked the conductor what was the point in that, he said, "well, because we wanted to go out with a bang, we decided to do this piece, and infact this is the first time in New Zealand to my knowledge that it has been performed!"
The conductor was Gavin Sutherland.
The music director was James Judd.
The Concert master (and 1st violinist) was Wilma Smith.

But it also says

Conductor Laureat Franz-Paul Decker.

I don't know if Laureat is a name or if it is another name for an understudy.

I don't know how recognised these people are overseas, but for most music goers in New Zeaaland they are legends!

I have never heard them play any Beethoven (But I will, as I said in another of my discussion topics), but I presume (and hope) that they will show just as much excellence!

oboe_15

Beethoven Rocks!

P.S I will have to change my name to oboe_16 soon on the 25-9! So sad, I like my name the way it is, so I might just stay good 'ol' oboe_15.

[This message has been edited by oboe_15 (edited 07-06-2001).]

[Serge]

I don't necessarily mean just Beethoven conductors; ANY conductor of any composer should be discussed. Curious thing, about the tempo of the Ode--if Peter, one of our resident omniscient Ludwig-o-philes, doesn't know the details, then I fear I must decide there's no real substance to the rumor. Someone help us out here!

My knowledge of conductors is limited. I'm only familiar with Abaddo, Karajan, and Salonen (the brilliant conductor of the Los Angeles PO). I really like Abaddo and Salonen, but find Karajan a little too lugubrious for moi. I'm also starting to appreciate Charles Dutoit, who conducts the Orchestre Symphonique du Montreal (an under-known SO, but what Canadian orchestra does anyone know about?).

One more thing, does anyone know how much money a top-flight conductor makes? I can never find that kind of info anywhere. Must be classified; every other kind of celebrity seems to advertise what they make.

[kerryblue]

HOw 'bout some of the Teutonics?--Klemperer, Walter (whom I like very much), Weingartner, Furtwangler (was he really a Nazi sympathizer or just naive?) Von Karajan--all were great and made fabulous recordings

Regards

Originally posted by Serge:
I haven't been here too much of late; just really busy right now, is all.

I do want to ask about your favorite conductors, though. Up till several years ago, I never realized, first of all, the range and scope a singe work could take if given to a number of different conductors. When I was young, I used to wonder if a piece was actually being rewritten by conductors. The strength of the brass or the emphasis of the winds here and there from one conductor to the next could make the piece entirely different. That was then, of course; now I just wonder about how a conductor finds his sound, and how much a role the orchestra plays in developing that sound.

Would anyone care to tell us who their favorite conductors are, past or present, and why? Are there any famous conductors who don't deserve half the praise they get. Any unknown ones who deserve more limelight?

Also: I remember being told in Gr. 9 music class that until early last century (or so), the theme to B.'s 9th (the Ode) was taken at half-speed, so it dragged out and sounded more regal or something. I think my teacher said that someone eventually discovered that the time signature was read wrong. Was that a conductor? Is there any truth to this?

[Claudie MICAULT]

What a big question....
What can earn a good conductor ? Too much for me because the orchestra makes a big work and don't get a lot ! If you remember Karajan -one of the best businessman of the centuries- you can see the Berliner Philharmonic playing WITHOUT looking at the "Chef" at all.... (and himself was not watching at his musicians for he kept -for "esthetical" reasons- his eyes closed most of the time).

Conductors ??? It depends which orchestra they have under the hand of course,and which composer.... but I like Böhm. Fürtwängler (sometimes wonderful, sometimes "bof") Kleiber, Szell, Klemperer, Barenboim, Bruno Walter, Charles Dutoit (not wellknown but topclass), and in opera -my field- the old lions :Toscanini, Serafin, Antonino Votto...
Contemporaries (except Barenboim) I see Gardiner (in barock camp) an CLaudio Abbado (sometimes) in opéra.

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Claudie

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
What a big question....

Exactly my point which is why I tried to narrow the field to our composer - Beethoven!

A pianist may be superb with Beethoven, but hopeless at Chopin - I think Schnabel was one such example. With conductors it is the same - a superb Ring Cycle doesn't necessarily equal a good 9th symphony!

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'Man know thyself'

[oboe_15]

Quote from Peter-"A pianist may be superb with Beethoven, but hopeless at Chopin - I think Schnabel was one such example."

Are you implying that a decent Pianist can only really master one major composer or several, I would have to disagree, I think that it is not necessarily the composer but the time in which it was composed in. For example, all of the great Pianinsts
that I have met (In New Zealand) have always told me that at University, they were a Barouge keyboardist, or a Classical performer ect. I heard of them saying WHO they liked performing. But never head of how you explained it Peter. I think that if you are talented enought to play reasonable technical ability, then you can be taught the how to play various other compositions by other artists.
It is not so cut and dry by saying that I am a good Debussy and Grieg Pianist, and a hopelsss Tcchaikovsky style. However I am a very open person and will eat my own words if you come back with such proof to proove me wrong.

Beethoven Rocks

oboe_15

[Peter]

Originally posted by oboe_15:
Quote from Peter-"A pianist may be superb with Beethoven, but hopeless at Chopin - I think Schnabel was one such example."

Are you implying that a decent Pianist can only really master one major composer or several, I would have to disagree, I think that it is not necessarily the composer but the time in which it was composed in. For example, all of the great Pianinsts
that I have met (In New Zealand) have always told me that at University, they were a Barouge keyboardist, or a Classical performer ect. I heard of them saying WHO they liked performing. But never head of how you explained it Peter. I think that if you are talented enought to play reasonable technical ability, then you can be taught the how to play various other compositions by other artists.
It is not so cut and dry by saying that I am a good Debussy and Grieg Pianist, and a hopelsss Tcchaikovsky style. However I am a very open person and will eat my own words if you come back with such proof to proove me wrong.

Beethoven Rocks

oboe_15

I thought that was a well known fact - an excellent Chopin player doesn't as a rule make for a first class Beethoven player and vice versa. I'm talking at the very top level, not merely managing to play the notes. Schnabel is renowned for his Beethoven not Chopin.

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

I agree totally with you Peter....

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Claudie

[oboe_15]

Well, I personlly did not know of Schnabel (sorry if it is incorrect spelling), but I still have queries on that. Yes I agree that at the top level, most people choose to specialise to one composer (Vladimir Ashkenazy is the only one that I know of that hasn't - and Mikhail Pletnev but Pletnev prefers Tchaikovsky) but why? I think of it as TOTALLY UNECESSARY! I have always beleived it to be... um... wel... to typical! Imagine that, if this trend continues, imagine how shopping for C.D's would be. Instead of having composer sections, it would be in the order of performers that prefer to play one particular composer. (I am refering to solo instruments) Performers would eventually be better known than the compser!

Or maybe I am talking out of a big whole out of my head and makes no scense (and the spelling). I am tired and you all probably disagree with me. But my personal beleives are that it is silly how most performers choose to specialise in one composer. I would get sick of playing the one artists works. I need in my life variety and different time periods of classical, Romanitc, Baroque ect.

Beethoven Rocks!

oboe_15

[Peter]

Originally posted by oboe_15:

But my personal beleives are that it is silly how most performers choose to specialise in one composer. I would get sick of playing the one artists works. I need in my life variety and different time periods of classical, Romanitc, Baroque ect.

Beethoven Rocks!

oboe_15

Well I don't know of any pianist who only plays one composer! My point is not that they shouldn't play other composers music, but they generally only achieve renown for their interpretation of one or two in particular. After all to perform and study B's sonatas alone out of the repertory is a lifetime's work!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I don't know of any pianist who only plays one composer!

Alas this seems to be the case and is the reason why with Beethoven we get so much 'cross infection' from later musical styles. Presumably is a necessity in the industry to be a jack of all trades.

Originally posted by Peter:

After all to perform and study B's sonatas alone out of the repertory is a lifetime's work!

Quite right, thus I look forward to seeing a pianist with the good sence to devote him/herself to the greatest piano composer, at the expense of all that Romantic nonsence (I accept to some this stuff is bizarrely referred to as 'music').


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[oboe_15]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] Quite right, thus I look forward to seeing a pianist with the good sence to devote him/herself to the greatest piano composer, at the expense of all that Romantic nonsence (I accept to some this stuff is bizarrely referred to as 'music'.

Are you refering to the 'Romantic era' when you say that it is nosence? I think that sometimes (in rare exceptions) that the 'Romantic era' was some of the most beautiful music ever written. You only hve to play Debussys' "Clair De Lune" to proove my point. Mind you, I lack in the scense that I am a VERY narrow minded music listener, I either hate or love the piece. Something that will get me into alot of trouble one day! But to say that it is "nonsence" is a bit harsh!

Beethoven Rocks!

oboe_15

[Rod]

[quote]Originally posted by oboe_15:
[b]

Originally posted by Rod:
Quite right, thus I look forward to seeing a pianist with the good sence to devote him/herself to the greatest piano composer, at the expense of all that Romantic nonsence (I accept to some this stuff is bizarrely referred to as 'music'.

Are you refering to the 'Romantic era' when you say that it is nosence? I think that sometimes (in rare exceptions) that the 'Romantic era' was some of the most beautiful music ever written. You only hve to play Debussys' "Clair De Lune" to proove my point. Mind you, I lack in the scense that I am a VERY narrow minded music listener, I either hate or love the piece. Something that will get me into alot of trouble one day! But to say that it is "nonsence" is a bit harsh!

Beethoven Rocks!

oboe_15

I was think primarily of the bravura stuff. The beauty you ascribe to these Romantics is of a superficial nature, and regardless is not a patch on the earlier stuff. Touching maybe, but not clever.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin