WoO works on online radio

[AlexOv]

Ev'nin' all!

Since a few weeks ago, when I was alerted to it by someone writing in these pages, I have been listening to the free online all-Beethoven radio station every time I start this computer
( http://www.streamaudio.com/stations/...ype=&filename= ) because I figure it is a good way to hear many many pieces of which I have been ignorant up to now and, of course, I get to hear a lot of old favourites, too, and these are often played on period instruments, which is a bonus in itself. And my browser supports multiple webpages being open at the same time, so I can do other online stuff while continuing to listen.

Anyway, to get to business, I have been astounded by the huge number of Without Opus or WoO works that exist. It seems there are hundreds of them, even including a piano concerto (WoO 4) written when Beethoven was only 14, which to my uneducated ears sounds as good as any concerto written by some of the other "greats" of the time (Mozart, Haydn, etc). There is also a set of three piano & strings quartets (WoO 36), which sound just fine to me. There are also many pieces for wind ensembles and cantatas for orchestra and choirs, etc.

It seems to me, judging from a quick glance at my copy of Thayer's biography and its exhaustive index that there are almost as many of the WoO pieces as there are Opus (published) ones. Of course, before you shout at me, I do realize that most of these WoO pieces were not major, long works. But I would be willing to wager a small fortune that most - the vast majority - of Beethoven fans have heard none of these pieces at all. ( Just don't ask me to lay down my money )

Do any of you know the reasons why none of these pieces were not published in Beethoven's lifetime? And when were they published? Immediately after his death or only more recently. Does anyone have information to share on this intriguing matter?

[Hofrat]

This topic has been discussed several times. In general, Beethoven's opus numbers were set when he published the work. I emphasize the phrase "in general." It stems from this that the WoO works are works that Beethoven did not publish.

[Peter]

Ev'nin' all!

Do any of you know the reasons why none of these pieces were not published in Beethoven's lifetime? And when were they published? Immediately after his death or only more recently. Does anyone have information to share on this intriguing matter?

Beethoven obviously did not consider them important enough for the designation Opus - however there are some fine pieces amongst them such as the cantatas, 3 early piano sonatas and the piano quartets. As to publication, a fair proportion were published during his lifetime such as those early sonatas WoO63 and most of the dances from WoO7 to WoO20 - the posthumous publications would have probably been soon after his death and certainly the majority in the 19th century - I suppose that string quartet fragment found recently would be the latest Beethoven publication! We featured mp3s of some of these rarer works on this site a while back - it may be time to think about that again if enough interest is shown - unfortunately our recent attempts to revive an mp3 page have met with little enthusiasm.

[Hofrat]

It is not a question of importance. Beethoven, together with his publishers, set the opus number when Beethoven published the work. Now one could say that Beethoven did not consider the WoO's as worthy for publication. Or the manuscripts of the WoO's were no longer in his control thus preventing him from publishing them. Or in many cases, the WoO's were not complete.

[gardibolt]

The opus numbers go up to 138.
The WoO numbers go up to 205 (though there are many works beyond 205 in that total....the 3 piano quartets in WoO 36, for instance or a dozen Italian songs in Wo0 99 (only 11 of which survive), many in multiple version.
The Hess numbers go up to 336,
and the Biamonti numbers go to 849, for good measure (plus the WoO, Hess and Biamonti catalogues have a bunch of pieces in the appendices, a few of which are genuine Beethoven but many of which, if not most, are spurious).

[PDG]

It is not a question of importance. Beethoven, together with his publishers, set the opus number when Beethoven published the work. Now one could say that Beethoven did not consider the WoO's as worthy for publication.

Hi Hofrat. Hard to believe Beethoven considered Rage Over A Lost Penny as worthy of his Opus number 129! I believe there were many shenanigans involved, and that publishers were complicit with the composer in trying to gain for themselves the New Beethoven Opus. LvB being as shrewd as he was wouldn't have minded too much the fight for his favours.

[Hofrat]

PDG did not understand me. Beethoven did not publish the rondo "Rage over the lost Penny" because he did not finish it. Although he performed it during his life, he did not complete it. The publisher Diabelli completed it and published it after Beethoven's death, giving it opus 129 which is an opus Beethoven skipped.

[Hofrat]

WoO 59 is the famous "Fur Elisa." Beethoven never published it, hence no opus number. The 1808 manuscript of the piece was lost. The 1822 manuscript was incomplete. Someone completed the work after Beethoven's death and published it, so it never got an opus number.

[Michael]

WoO 59 is the famous "Fur Elisa." Beethoven never published it, hence no opus number. The 1808 manuscript of the piece was lost. The 1822 manuscript was incomplete. Someone completed the work after Beethoven's death and published it, so it never got an opus number.

I take it that you are referring to the 1822 version when you say someone else completed it? Even though the autograph manuscript of the 1808 (or 1810) version of "Fur Elise" is missing, there has never been any suggestion that it was completed by anybody other than Beethoven.
The 1822 version survives in a slightly fragmentary form and you can hear a completed version at the "Unheard Beethoven" website.