david zinman

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree they are tuneful and enjoyable - but these words can be applied equally to Rossini and a host of other lesser composers. Please don't get me wrong, I don't wish to sound snobbish about it, but we are talking about Beethoven - the greatest composer - and for him, these works are below par.

You keep mentioning Rossini in conjunction with this music. I haven't heard a great deal of R, but I thus assume he wrote a great deal of music in the Hungarian style?! It occured to me that I should do some mp3s of the two 'Hungarian' overtures by the Hanover band to see if it would affect your assessment, but the boxed set is cheap enough for your wallet to take a chance.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
You keep mentioning Rossini in conjunction with this music. I haven't heard a great deal of R, but I thus assume he wrote a great deal of music in the Hungarian style?! It occured to me that I should do some mp3s of the two 'Hungarian' overtures by the Hanover band to see if it would affect your assessment, but the boxed set is cheap enough for your wallet to take a chance.

Without reading back through my over 1000 posts! I don't recall mentioning Rossini at all before in connection with these two overtures (I was referring more to the Incidental music) - I wasn't comparing them to Rossini anyway, I was merely saying that Michael's description of tuneful and enjoyable could easily apply to Rossini - it also applies to Bizet's Symphony in C and Schubert's 2 overtures in Italian style as well as countless other lesser composers.

I don't dislike the 2 Hungarian overtures - I only said they're not up there with say Coriolan or Egmont. Are you trying to tell me that if I listen to the Hanover Band's version I will regard them as being the equal of those two overtures? I doubt it, but I am willing to listen to their version as I am enjoying hearing all B's orchestral music played on period instruments and I have no doubt they give an exhilerating performance.

Incidentally what is this Hungarian style you refer to ? As far as I am aware no one wrote in a true Hungarian style until Bartok.

I listened to the Prometheus music again last night and why this wonderful ballet is no longer in the repertory is a mystery - this is the bicentenary year of its first performance so I wonder if anyone is bothering to revive it?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Without reading back through my over 1000 posts! I don't recall mentioning Rossini at all before in connection with these two overtures (I was referring more to the Incidental music) - I wasn't comparing them to Rossini anyway,

You could have fooled me! I recall you mentioning R before in connection with the KS overture.

Originally posted by Peter:

I don't dislike the 2 Hungarian overtures - I only said they're not up there with say Coriolan or Egmont. Are you trying to tell me that if I listen to the Hanover Band's version I will regard them as being the equal of those two overtures? I doubt it, but I am willing to listen to their version as I am enjoying hearing all B's orchestral music played on period instruments and I have no doubt they give an exhilerating performance.

Not all overtures have to be in the serious style! but with the HB they are played at an exhilarating pace, with brass blasting everywhere. On the disk they follow as tracks 2 and 3 after the Coriolan, which says something. The impression given allows their inclusion with B's more famous efforts.

Originally posted by Peter:

Incidentally what is this Hungarian style you refer to ? As far as I am aware no one wrote in a true Hungarian style until Bartok.

B wrote on occasion in the Hungarian style! Look for it in the quartet op95, the 8th Symphony finale, and obviously the current works in discussion. What were the Hungarian peasants dancing to before Bartok?! Perhaps Rossini!

Originally posted by Peter:

I listened to the Prometheus music again last night and why this wonderful ballet is no longer in the repertory is a mystery - this is the bicentenary year of its first performance so I wonder if anyone is bothering to revive it?

Get Bruggens disk on Phillips if you can, it knocks the rest for six. Mackerras is pretty good (on Hyperion I think), but not a patch on Bruggen.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
B wrote on occasion in the Hungarian style! Look for it in the quartet op95, the 8th Symphony finale, and obviously the current works in discussion. What were the Hungarian peasants dancing to before Bartok?! Perhaps Rossini!

You haven't answered my question - I asked what is this Hungarian style?

The question is not quite as simple as you make out - I quote:

"While the popular salon songs of the gypsy orchestras were long assumed to be the traditional folk tunes of Hungary, the truth behind the nation's musical history was not widely revealed until the early 20th century, when a unique and previously unknown folk tradition -- dating back some 4,000 years to the culture's very roots -- was unearthed in the Finno-Ugrian linguistic group of the Volga-Kama region of the Russian Republic. With its pentatonic (five-note) songs and descending patterns, it is most similar to the songs of the Mari people of the Volga/Kama, with most of the traditional Hungarian repertoire directly originating in this region.

There was, however, another strand of indigenous music: dance music that originated from the end of the 18th century. Certain collections of instrumental music contained melodies that alloyed Western harmonies and forms with traditional Hungarian dance music. These dances were marked by embellishments and rhythm patterns that were indeed unmistakably Hungarian. The music was called verbunkos. Originally the term meant men’s dance associated with the recruitment of soldiers. Later on it became dance music unrelated to its military function, and it helped the renewal of the 19th-century Hungarian musical idiom. As Gypsy bands most often played the music, it was mistakenly associated with Gypsy music. Although that misconception was propagated by Ferenc Liszt in his book: On Gypsies and Gypsy Music in Hungary (Paris, 1859), verbunkos has nothing to do with genuine Gypsy folk music. "

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-12-2001).]

[Bob the Composer]

It is not a crime to like period recordings. Yesterday, I was listening to the radio and I heard the Egmont Overture performed by the Academy of Ancient Music conducted by Christopher Hogwood. Overall, I didn't notice much difference in sound, except for the Horns and perhaps the Timpani. The interpretation was sound, although I was a little caught off guard by the shortening of the opening notes. It's not necessarily a bad touch (it does work with the rest of the interpretation) but I'd never heard it performed that way.

Bob

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I am not a number, I am a free man!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
It is not a crime to like period recordings. Yesterday, I was listening to the radio and I heard the Egmont Overture performed by the Academy of Ancient Music conducted by Christopher Hogwood. Overall, I didn't notice much difference in sound, except for the Horns and perhaps the Timpani. The interpretation was sound, although I was a little caught off guard by the shortening of the opening notes. It's not necessarily a bad touch (it does work with the rest of the interpretation) but I'd never heard it performed that way.

Bob

The Egmont in my opinion is easily the worst performed of the B overtures. There seems to be a competition to see who can make it as lamely broad and formless as possible. Thus any tightening is to be commended!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
You haven't answered my question - I asked what is this Hungarian style?

The question is not quite as simple as you make out - I quote:

"While the popular salon songs of the gypsy orchestras were long assumed to be the traditional folk tunes of Hungary, the truth behind the nation's musical history was not widely revealed until the early 20th century, when a unique and previously unknown folk tradition -- dating back some 4,000 years to the culture's very roots -- was unearthed in the Finno-Ugrian linguistic group of the Volga-Kama region of the Russian Republic. With its pentatonic (five-note) songs and descending patterns, it is most similar to the songs of the Mari people of the Volga/Kama, with most of the traditional Hungarian repertoire directly originating in this region.

There was, however, another strand of indigenous music: dance music that originated from the end of the 18th century. Certain collections of instrumental music contained melodies that alloyed Western harmonies and forms with traditional Hungarian dance music. These dances were marked by embellishments and rhythm patterns that were indeed unmistakably Hungarian. The music was called verbunkos. Originally the term meant men’s dance associated with the recruitment of soldiers. Later on it became dance music unrelated to its military function, and it helped the renewal of the 19th-century Hungarian musical idiom. As Gypsy bands most often played the music, it was mistakenly associated with Gypsy music. Although that misconception was propagated by Ferenc Liszt in his book: On Gypsies and Gypsy Music in Hungary (Paris, 1859), verbunkos has nothing to do with genuine Gypsy folk music. "

I wasn't particularly thinking about Gypsies, but this verbunkos sound like it could be what I am thinking about. Listen to the last movment in particular of op95, after the slow intro - that lilting dance. This is what I call Hungarian style, and it is a fact that the piece has Hungarian connections. In 'K Stephan' the choruses especially are not of a nature typical of B's music of this type. This style can have a certain dark quality to it as demonstrated in op95. At least this is how it sounds to me, and the dances are of a distinctive nature unlike that of the Germanic nations. I think there is a hint of this type of dance in the 8th finale, though I have not read this anywhere else. This is all I can really say on the matter.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I wasn't particularly thinking about Gypsies, but this verbunkos sound like it could be what I am thinking about.

Yes I think it is - this Verbunkos music is not a true Hungarian style, which was my point - Since the beginnings of the 19th century, if not earlier, music played by Hungarian Gypsies in urban settings became very popular throughout the Hapsburg empire. So much so, that the music they played became synonymous with Hungarian "folk" music. This was the music Liszt heard when he was growing up. This music was often popular Hungarian tunes which originated in cities and not the real music of the Gypsies or of Hungarian peasants, played with tremendous virtuosity and pathos which is central to so much Gypsy musicianship. About 1905 Bartók realized that what generally passed as Hungarian folk music was actually gypsy music arranged according to conventional Central European standards.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes I think it is - this Verbunkos music is not a true Hungarian style, which was my point - Since the beginnings of the 19th century, if not earlier, music played by Hungarian Gypsies in urban settings became very popular throughout the Hapsburg empire. So much so, that the music they played became synonymous with Hungarian "folk" music. This was the music Liszt heard when he was growing up. This music was often popular Hungarian tunes which originated in cities and not the real music of the Gypsies or of Hungarian peasants, played with tremendous virtuosity and pathos which is central to so much Gypsy musicianship. About 1905 Bartók realized that what generally passed as Hungarian folk music was actually gypsy music arranged according to conventional Central European standards.

Fair enough, to be honest I don't care where in Eastern Europe it originates, but there was a sound one can associate today as 'Hungarian' in existance at that time. I can call it 'Central European' if you like, but now and again there's some if it in some of B's music.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Fair enough, to be honest I don't care where in Eastern Europe it originates, but there was a sound one can associate today as 'Hungarian' in existance at that time. I can call it 'Central European' if you like, but now and again there's some if it in some of B's music.

I know what you mean, and I know the works you mean - these 'Hungarian' elements also formed the basis of Brahms's and Liszt's Hungarian dances - but they were not really part of a true traditional Hungarian style which is what I think you were referring to originally.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
- but they were not really part of a true traditional Hungarian style which is what I think you were referring to originally.

Whatever Bartok discovered is by the by. I was refering to what I personally associate as a Hungarian sound. However, for the record I've been to Budapest and heard Hungarian folk-songs sung live in Hungary! Try going up to these guys and rabble on about what is Hungarian and what isn't - then pick yourself up off the dirt!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-13-2001).]

[Bob the Composer]

Originally posted by Rod:

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
It is not a crime to like period recordings. Yesterday, I was listening to the radio and I heard the Egmont Overture performed by the Academy of Ancient Music conducted by Christopher Hogwood. Overall, I didn't notice much difference in sound, except for the Horns and perhaps the Timpani. The interpretation was sound, although I was a little caught off guard by the shortening of the opening notes. It's not necessarily a bad touch (it does work with the rest of the interpretation) but I'd never heard it performed that way.

Bob

The Egmont in my opinion is easily the worst performed of the B overtures. There seems to be a competition to see who can make it as lamely broad and formless as possible. Thus any tightening is to be commended!

Who would you recommend?

Bob

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I am not a number, I am a free man!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
Who would you recommend?

Bob

I think the tightest rendition I have bought was Norrington's recording on EMI, but his phrasing lacks any authority and thus the effect is rather underwhealming. These days I play only my Hanover band version which though not quite as short as N's has rather more 'clout', and it is tighter than most I've heard. All of my various modern orch. recordings (we all must have about 6 or 7 versions of Egmont - they stick it everywhere!) are so lame they are beyond consideration. I have no ultra first class recommendation for this piece.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin