david zinman

[Op132inaminor]

Great set of beethoven symphonies on Arte nova label at great price performed by david zinman (of baltimore fame) with zurich tonnhalle orch. modern instruments but with small orchestra using latest research on scores exciting performances well played with what appears to be some improvisation on woodwinds. about 25 US dollars

[Rod]

Originally posted by Op132inaminor:
Great set of beethoven symphonies on Arte nova label at great price performed by david zinman (of baltimore fame) with zurich tonnhalle orch. modern instruments but with small orchestra using latest research on scores exciting performances well played with what appears to be some improvisation on woodwinds. about 25 US dollars

If he'd performed with a period instrument orchestra this project may have amounted to something significant. As things stand, from what I've heard of this set, I have little reason to stray way from my existing (and much preferred) period instrument recordings.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Bob the Composer]

Originally posted by Rod:
If he'd performed with a period instrument orchestra this project may have amounted to something significant. As things stand, from what I've heard of this set, I have little reason to stray way from my existing (and much preferred) period instrument recordings.

Rod, I must say I disagree. I think that to say that if Beethoven were alive, he'd insist upon period instruments is to imply that he is both stupid and naive. Any good musician knows that people will always be making "improvements" on the various instruments. Beethoven thus surely would have known this. Yet he never said anything directly about it. I think that if he were alive, he'd be more likely to revise the works than to insist upon period instruments. But he isn't alive, and it is useless to speculate, except that Beethoven knew that the pianos and other instruments of his time were changing, and that changes would probably continue to occur. To imagine that he would not acknowledge this is thus to say that he is stupid.

Bob

------------------
I am not a number, I am a free man!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
Rod, I must say I disagree. I think that to say that if Beethoven were alive, he'd insist upon period instruments is to imply that he is both stupid and naive. Any good musician knows that people will always be making "improvements" on the various instruments. Beethoven thus surely would have known this. Yet he never said anything directly about it. I think that if he were alive, he'd be more likely to revise the works than to insist upon period instruments. But he isn't alive, and it is useless to speculate, except that Beethoven knew that the pianos and other instruments of his time were changing, and that changes would probably continue to occur. To imagine that he would not acknowledge this is thus to say that he is stupid.

Bob

My point concerning the recordings in question was basically if one is to use the most up to date research regarding the scores - ie the most 'authentic' scores, why not go all the way and include the most authentic intrumentation, pitch, temperement, tempi, playing techniques etc, so we can for once have the whole picture, as near as possible to what B must have had in mind. It seems in many ways Z was attempting to achieve an authentic performance, but you cannot get that extra ounce of colour and crisp vitality without reverting to the old instruments. This is the high standard I am looking for. If Z had used a period instrument orchestra can you honestly say it would have been to the detriment of the music!?

Such 'improvements' were not designed with Beethoven's music particularly in mind. Some of them did not occur until the 20th century. The nature of instruments has always developed to suit the requirements of the performers of the day, not of 100/200 years in the past! This is pure business logic from the instrument manufacturers point of view. There was considerable development during B's own lifetime and this is reflected in his music.

Conserning the piano, B chose piano's made to his own preferences and/or specifications - as was the norm in those days for the more expensive models. B refrained from revising his old 5 octave keyboard sonatas when 5.5/6 octave models became readily available.

This is not a matter of speculation, it is a matter of you refusing to grant these old instruments any validity as instruments. If they can be regarded as valid instruments, as I believe, then these are the instruments to be used. It should not be a complicated issue.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

I think we are living at a fortunate time - not only to be able to hear performances live (with period and modern instruments) but to have recordings of both available - this was not the case 50 years ago and I doubt it will be in 100 years time when there probably won't be anyone around capable of performing these works - CM is in serious trouble with the under 30's and I fear it may be terminal.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think we are living at a fortunate time - not only to be able to hear performances live (with period and modern instruments) but to have recordings of both available - this was not the case 50 years ago and I doubt it will be in 100 years time when there probably won't be anyone around capable of performing these works - CM is in serious trouble with the under 30's and I fear it may be terminal.

Should CM survive to be performed in 100 years time (!), if we use the experience shown with baroque music over the past 50 years, then at least 90% of all new Beethoven recordings will be done on period instruments! Pity I won't be around to witness it.

You know from my perspective, though not an under 30 (though last week someone asked me if I was under 21!), I consider a considerable portion of CM to be not even worthy of mass consumption, whereas for some reason the CM establishment chooses to hide away music of quality that perhaps may assist the revival of CM's fortunes! Of course the CM establishment has never been reknowned for good taste or judgement, hence the survival and indeed proliferation, in my opinion, of so much utter garbage.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Of course the CM establishment has never been reknowned for good taste or judgement, hence the survival and indeed proliferation, in my opinion, of so much utter garbage.

Yes but your view dismisses everything not by Handel or Beethoven as utter garbage and this does nothing to help the situation - or for others to take your viewpoint seriously. Beethoven (and by his own admittance) himself wrote some pretty 2nd rate stuff, e.g Some of the stage music that would never have been recorded if its composer's name didn't happen to be Beethoven ! I've recently listened to a lot of the stage music and apart from the Egmont music (which is on a higher level) it is attractive and pleasant, but you can say no more than that.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes but your view dismisses everything not by Handel or Beethoven as utter garbage and this does nothing to help the situation - or for others to take your viewpoint seriously. Beethoven (and by his own admittance) himself wrote some pretty 2nd rate stuff, e.g Some of the stage music that would never have been recorded if its composer's name didn't happen to be Beethoven ! I've recently listened to a lot of the stage music and apart from the Egmont music (which is on a higher level) it is attractive and pleasant, but you can say no more than that.

I would graciously allow a select number of composers other than the two supreme Titans you mention, but I'm afraid the vast majority of 'compositions' post 1830 to the present day can be accurately classed as garbage.

Regarding Beethoven's stage music, I would concede your point if it concerned B's lack of output in this genre - in which case I would deem Handel as the champion. But if you only think the Egmont numbers are more than just 'pleasant', I can only say you have only heard lame renditions of the other works and , with respect, have not the foresight to imagine their true realisation. Some of the music from the Ruins of Athens is absolutely first class, Beethoven's ballet music is the best of its kind (check Bruggen's recording), B's oratario and cantatas are only now beginning to be realised for the quality compositions that they are, B's opera is the supreme achievement in opera! Not bad for a guy who never specialised in the stage.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

Regarding Beethoven's stage music, I would concede your point if it concerned B's lack of output in this genre - in which case I would deem Handel as the champion. But if you only think the Egmont numbers are more than just 'pleasant', I can only say you have only heard lame renditions of the other works and , with respect, have not the foresight to imagine their true realisation. Some of the music from the Ruins of Athens is absolutely first class, Beethoven's ballet music is the best of its kind (check Bruggen's recording), B's oratario and cantatas are only now beginning to be realised for the quality compositions that they are, B's opera is the supreme achievement in opera! Not bad for a guy who never specialised in the stage.

Well the cantatas and Oratorio don't fit into this category. I agree with you about Fidelio ( and you could have added Vestas feuer - the music that survives is first rate) but not about The Ruin of Athens and King Stephen - some of the music in these two deserves to be better known, but none of it is first rate Beethoven, probably as it was hurriedly composed and the subject matter did not particularly inspire B unlike with Egmont.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-11-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well the cantatas and Oratorio don't fit into this category. I agree with you about Fidelio ( and you could have added Vestas feuer - the music that survives is first rate) but not about The Ruin of Athens and King Stephen - some of the music in these two deserves to be better known, but none of it is first rate Beethoven.

Considering oratarios and cantatas were pricipally written as theatre productions by this time I would construe this as music for the stage. There is a certain degree of acting required. Where else were Handel's English oratarios designed for other than Covent Garden?! Many of these had stage directions. I disagree about 'Ruins..' but even less than first rate Beethoven is preferable to Swan Lake! 'The Glorious Moment' is also excellent but nobody performs it!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Bob the Composer]

Originally posted by Rod:
My point concerning the recordings in question was basically if one is to use the most up to date research regarding the scores - ie the most 'authentic' scores, why not go all the way and include the most authentic intrumentation, pitch, temperement, tempi, playing techniques etc, so we can for once have the whole picture, as near as possible to what B must have had in mind. It seems in many ways Z was attempting to achieve an authentic performance, but you cannot get that extra ounce of colour and crisp vitality without reverting to the old instruments. This is the high standard I am looking for. If Z had used a period instrument orchestra can you honestly say it would have been to the detriment of the music!?

Such 'improvements' were not designed with Beethoven's music particularly in mind. Some of them did not occur until the 20th century. The nature of instruments has always developed to suit the requirements of the performers of the day, not of 100/200 years in the past! This is pure business logic from the instrument manufacturers point of view. There was considerable development during B's own lifetime and this is reflected in his music.

This is not a matter of speculation, it is a matter of you refusing to grant these old instruments any validity as instruments. If they can be regarded as valid instruments, as I believe, then these are the instruments to be used. It should not be a complicated issue.

Getting back to the origional issue,

I never said they weren't valid, I simply mentioned that Beethoven would probably not be nearly as fanatical about it as you are. It doesn't hurt to use period instruments, and in some ways it can help. You mentioned, though, that the changes may not have been made with Beethoven in mind. Were the changes to the piano during Beethoven's life made with Mozart in mind? And yet Beethoven continued to perform his music. Also, I hold instrument and interpretation to be two seperate things, and it is better I would think to have a period interpretation on modern instruments than a horribly bland, slow interpretation on period instruments. I believe you have sometimes said the same thing yourself, though I could be mistaken. On another note: if the vast majority of post 1830 music is bad, does that then mean you regard a very select few as not being bad?

Bob

------------------
I am not a number, I am a free man!


[This message has been edited by Bob the Composer (edited 07-11-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Considering oratarios and cantatas were pricipally written as theatre productions by this time I would construe this as music for the stage. 'The Glorious Moment' is also excellent but nobody performs it!

I've never seen B's oratorio or cantatas classified as stage music, but I won't argue the point. The Glorious Moment is a fine piece, but with a pretty lame text.



------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

Originally posted by Peter:
I've never seen B's oratorio or cantatas classified as stage music, but I won't argue the point. The Glorious Moment is a fine piece, but with a pretty lame text.

I think the "lame text" is the only problem with the "Ruins of Athens" and "King Stephen". I find both these works extremely tuneful and enjoyable. Set against the symphonies, sonatas and quartets, they are bound to come off second best. But I have to agree with Rod that "second-rate Beethoven" (which is almost a contradiction in terms) still beats most of the opposition.

Michael

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
I think the "lame text" is the only problem with the "Ruins of Athens" and "King Stephen". I find both these works extremely tuneful and enjoyable. Set against the symphonies, sonatas and quartets, they are bound to come off second best. But I have to agree with Rod that "second-rate Beethoven" (which is almost a contradiction in terms) still beats most of the opposition.

Michael

I agree they are tuneful and enjoyable - but these words can be applied equally to Rossini and a host of other lesser composers. Please don't get me wrong, I don't wish to sound snobbish about it, but we are talking about Beethoven - the greatest composer - and for him, these works are below par.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:

Getting back to the origional issue,

I never said they weren't valid, I simply mentioned that Beethoven would probably not be nearly as fanatical about it as you are. It doesn't hurt to use period instruments, and in some ways it can help. You mentioned, though, that the changes may not have been made with Beethoven in mind. Were the changes to the piano during Beethoven's life made with Mozart in mind?

No they were made with the likes of Beethoven in mind. However the principle development at this time was keyboard expansion. The sonic elements which can be associated with the Viennese action, and indeed the action itself, changed very little from what I have heard and seen.

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:

And yet Beethoven continued to perform his music. Also, I hold instrument and interpretation to be two seperate things, and it is better I would think to have a period interpretation on modern instruments than a horribly bland, slow interpretation on period instruments. I believe you have sometimes said the same thing yourself, though I could be mistaken. On another note: if the vast majority of post 1830 music is bad, does that then mean you regard a very select few as not being bad?

Bob

The differences between a 5 octave in M's time compared to the 5 octave B wrote the 'moonlight' for are negligable compared to the vast gulf between these instruments and the modern piano.

I have said on many occasion that a fortepiano alone will not guarantee a good performance, but its nature WILL influence the interpretation - I can't isolate the two totally. It is Steinway's stranglehold on the piano market that is making the music bland (are they owned by Microsoft?!). Whereas B had possession or loan of at least 20 different brands of piano!!

The select few are only less bad, I would still prefer to listen to a trifle by Beethoven than the best of the Romantic 'epics'. We need not even discuss the 20thC music after this period. B's music is more in tune with my own mindset, its as simple as that. If it's a crime I am guilty as charged your honour.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin