The hardest Beethoven work?

[oboe_15]

Well, my Music Teacher and I get on to some lengthy discussions and sometimes arguments. Our most recent debate is "What is technically the hardest Piano work that Beethoven EVER worte?" Due to the fact that she has played many more pieces, we are just debating over what is harder to play out of the third movement of the "Moonlight sonata", than the piano solo to his third Piano concerto (first movement)!

Plaese agree with me, htat the "Moonlight Sonata" is harder, or maybe it is just the fact that I hate and can't stand appegios that rein supreme throughout the "Moonlight sonata". But she thinks that it is harder for the Concerto.

(To all performers)
But I would also like to know what is the hardest Beethoven work you have ever played? And Please tell me if it WASN"T for the Piano. For Example, Beethovens' violin concerto, has a painfully high THREE top A's at the beginning of the first movement. And that is enough to make any oboe players face turn red no matter how soft the reed of how good the player!

Thankyou for your replies!

oboe_15

Beethoven rocks!

[This message has been edited by oboe_15 (edited 07-05-2001).]

[Peter]

Concertos are so different to sonatas that it is not an easy comparison to make - you'll probably be surprised that what some people regard as easy, a great artist would regard as very difficult, an example is the opening of the 4th piano concerto. I can also tell you that none of the movements of the Moonlight Sonata are easy. Playing the notes is one thing, but there are infinite ways of playing those notes and the more advanced you become the harder it gets as you become far more self critical. On a purely technical level, I would have said the 3rd movement of the Moonlight was more challenging than the first movement of the 3rd concerto, but that is by no means easy either!

The 2 hardest Beethoven works I have played are the Appassionata and the 32 variations in C minor. Op.110 was by far the biggest musical challenge ever!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[oboe_15]

Originally posted by Peter:
Concertos are so different to sonatas that it is not an easy comparison to make - you'll probably be surprised that what some people regard as easy, a great artist would regard as very difficult, an example is the opening of the 4th piano concerto. I can also tell you that none of the movements of the Moonlight Sonata are easy. Playing the notes is one thing, but there are infinite ways of playing those notes and the more advanced you become the harder it gets as you become far more self critical. On a purely technical level, I would have said the 3rd movement of the Moonlight was more challenging than the first movement of the 3rd concerto, but that is by no means easy either!

The 2 hardest Beethoven works I have played are the Appassionata and the 32 variations in C minor. Op.110 was by far the biggest musical challenge ever!

[oboe_15]

The 2 hardest Beethoven works I have played are the Appassionata and the 32 variations in C minor. Op.110 was by far the biggest musical challenge ever!

Would those two works be two of the hardest by any coposer? I always found that the hardest piano works I have ever played was Chopins "Fantasie Impromptu in C-sharp minor" And the other to be Debussys' "Arabasque no 2" I don't know what it is about the "Arabasque" But I have always found that to be some of the hardest to ever play. (Maybe it is just me because I know that there IS harder music that I have played)

oboe_15

Beethoevn Rocks!

P.S Thankyou for supporting me in my argument for the debates with my music teacher - despite the fact that we argue alot we actually have a good relationship together.

[dice45]

Originally posted by Peter:

The 2 hardest Beethoven works I have played are the Appassionata and the 32 variations in C minor. Op.110 was by far the biggest musical challenge ever!

Hello Peter,

which 32 variations in c-minor do you mean?
Do you mean the Diabelli variations? (my Schnabel recording does not state a key for it)

How about the Hammerklavier sonata op.106?

A schoolmate of mine managed to play the Moonlight sonata technically flawless and musically gorgeous, just right, even the 3rd mvmnt. But he said the Hammerklavier sonata was a technical challenge too big for him, it would start with the very 1st chords (he stated he hardly could hit all the keys as simultaneous as required and shading the chords was completely impossible) and then in the Allegro risoluto of the 4th mvmnt, he would completely get lost, technically as musically.

I heard similar statements later from other young artists, some of them in panic when required to play the op.106 . Once I heard a young pianist at the ARD music competition cursing to himself "why the §$%& do they require the Hammerklavier sonata?"

My old "listening teacher" also claimed this sonata to be the hardest to play and she presumed this challenge would be caused by the inability to grasp the work. The caused panic would inflict the technique, she said.

Yesterday I looked at our local records shop for the BSQ availablility and order codes as yo asked me and I also asked for a recommendation of a contemporary Beethoven pianist and got the name Alfredo Perl. So I decided to listen to his Hammerklavier interpretation. He played it really good, I was not totally satisfied with his chord shading, but that is personal taste. Significantly I did not like his 1st percussive chords of the 1st mvmnt, particularly the shading.
But on the whole he played the opus very good and in one integral piece, except the 4th mvmnt: he got completely lost in the Allegro risoluto (the fugue) of the 4th mvmnt which in fact broke into shreds. Funnily, his feeling was right on track again on the few calm notes before the last outburst, but in the last outburst he got lost again.

As Beethoven-loving listener, I observed once or twice a pianist playing the Hammerklavier sonata in in one consistent piece. With most pianists, it sounded like chopping wood or like a kettle of coloured laundry.
So I presume this sonata is not really easy to play. What do you think?

Oh, and what about the Diabelli variations?

What really would interest me, what do you think about the statement, that lack in understanding, grasping a piece causes technical/manual problems due to the incertainty of the mind?

Sheet of paper, this post again has gotten out of hand!!

Greets,
Bernhard

[Peter]

Originally posted by dice45:
Hello Peter,

which 32 variations in c-minor do you mean?
Do you mean the Diabelli variations? (my Schnabel recording does not state a key for it)

How about the Hammerklavier sonata op.106?

My old "listening teacher" also claimed this sonata to be the hardest to play and she presumed this challenge would be caused by the inability to grasp the work. The caused panic would inflict the technique, she said.


Oh, and what about the Diabelli variations?

What really would interest me, what do you think about the statement, that lack in understanding, grasping a piece causes technical/manual problems due to the incertainty of the mind?

Sheet of paper, this post again has gotten out of hand!!

Greets,
Bernhard

I was referring to the 32 in C minor WoO80 written in 1806 -

Yes I agree the Hammerklavier is the most difficult of all Beethoven's sonatas, which is why I've never attempted it! The last 2 movements are simply formidable - The Adagio musically, and the fugue technically. You are right to point out the mental challenge as well as the physical!
The Diabelli are also a superhuman challenge - Beethoven wasn't kind to musicians in his late works! But I'm not complaining if I can hear a good performance by someone else. I think Brendel's account of the Hammerklavier is pretty awesome.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Immortal Beloved]

Originally posted by oboe_15:
Well, my Music Teacher and I get on to some lengthy discussions and sometimes arguments. Our most recent debate is "What is technically the hardest Piano work that Beethoven EVER worte?" Due to the fact that she has played many more pieces, we are just debating over what is harder to play out of the third movement of the "Moonlight sonata", than the piano solo to his third Piano concerto (first movement)!

Plaese agree with me, htat the "Moonlight Sonata" is harder, or maybe it is just the fact that I hate and can't stand appegios that rein supreme throughout the "Moonlight sonata". But she thinks that it is harder for the Concerto.

(To all performers)
But I would also like to know what is the hardest Beethoven work you have ever played? And Please tell me if it WASN"T for the Piano. For Example, Beethovens' violin concerto, has a painfully high THREE top A's at the beginning of the first movement. And that is enough to make any oboe players face turn red no matter how soft the reed of how good the player!

Thankyou for your replies!

oboe_15

Beethoven rocks!

[This message has been edited by oboe_15 (edited 07-05-2001).]

The hardest beethoven work I gotta say Minuet in G....

[Luis]

I love how furious the HK fugue sounds (it’s certainly one of my favorites B piano mvts) but, although I didn’t searched for too much, I’ve never found a version that could express all the music ‘contained’ in that fugue. I mean, there is much more melody (really beautiful melody) behind all that lovely noise. I wonder if after all it’s technically possible to express all the music I mentally fill and stress when I listen to it. But after hearing a few versions I’m beginning to think that this fugue was only possible because of Beethoven’s almost complete deafness at that time (And thank God for his deafness!!!!).
Do you feel like me on this? If not what version do you consider it best explodes the melody “behind” this fugue?


[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 07-06-2001).]

[oboe_15]

Originally posted by Immortal Beloved:
The hardest beethoven work I gotta say Minuet in G....

I have to agree that that is ONE of the hardest, the rhythem poses no great challenge, however, scince developing a marble sized 'garlion' on my left wrist and various others, I simply don't have the pian thresh-hold to play it. And unfortunately Grieg and Debussy have also suffered!

oboe_15

Beethoven rocks!

[dice45]

Hello Luis,

Originally posted by Luis:
I love how furious the HK fugue sounds (it’s certainly one of my favorites B piano mvts) but, although I didn’t searched for too much, I’ve never found a version that could express all the music ‘contained’ in that fugue. I mean, there is much more melody (really beautiful melody) behind all that lovely noise.

are you sure you mean melody? To me, this fugue is a mostly polyphonic outburst, leaving the concept melody for most of the time. It is stacked chords, pure overtone music, not base-melody-oriented anymore. And the overtones create new chords in your mind and your body.

Like Ravi Shankar playing Indian classical music on his sitar, like Jimi Hendrix raping his electric guitar, like Pharoah Sanders overblowing his horn and sounding like a whole bunch of praying saxophones. Like Japanese masters playing the shakuhachi flute or Arabian mystics playing the shenai.

Beethoven, JSBach and William Byrd were composers frequently leaving the usual western classical music's base-tone-orientedness, melody-orientedness and exploring overtone music.
The HK fugue is a wonderful example of this and its complexity goes quite beyond most of the examples above.
I find a lot of melodies overlaid and they create new melodies (I guess, not even written in the score although LvB had them in mind) every time I listen to it.
But the fugue has to stay integral, consistent with the slow parts and the whole opus; it can be played, has to be played in a way it doesn't break into pieces.

I wonder if after all it’s technically possible to express all the music I mentally fill and stress when I listen to it.

Sounds like you seem to prove my point
BTW, the late sting quartets have similar qualities to me.

But after hearing a few versions I’m beginning to think that this fugue was only possible because of Beethoven’s almost complete deafness at that time (And thank God for his deafness!!!!).
Do you feel like me on this? If not what version do you consider it best explodes the melody “behind” this fugue?

Try out Solomon playing it!
and BTW, try out his op.111, too!

He is one of those pianists of the past able to play very colourful, to shade chords (I guess, pressing down each key with different velocity and so giving the chord a characteristic, individual attack AND decay, I hope my translation works, we say "abtönen" in Germany).

Arthur Schnabel also plays an incredible HK sonata, but the ancient recording technique as well as his limited pianistic technique make this performance less clear and open on the intellectual level, Schnabel's grasp of the HK however is on Solomons level, for his chord-shading I have no words.

I have to listen how Wilhelm Backhaus plays it but I am sure he also plays it very good; he usually plays "Beethoven coming in through the backdoor, the subconscious" which is wonderful for LvB beginners.

Greets,
Bernhard

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Concertos are so different to sonatas that it is not an easy comparison to make - you'll probably be surprised that what some people regard as easy, a great artist would regard as very difficult, an example is the opening of the 4th piano concerto. I can also tell you that none of the movements of the Moonlight Sonata are easy. Playing the notes is one thing, but there are infinite ways of playing those notes and the more advanced you become the harder it gets as you become far more self critical. On a purely technical level, I would have said the 3rd movement of the Moonlight was more challenging than the first movement of the 3rd concerto, but that is by no means easy either!

The 2 hardest Beethoven works I have played are the Appassionata and the 32 variations in C minor. Op.110 was by far the biggest musical challenge ever!

There's no question The Appassionata has got to be one of the hardest but what about Piano Sonata #8 Opus 13 "The Pathetique"? The 2nd movement (which happens to be my personal favourite) so moving...so beautiful...But what about the 1st and 3rd mm regarding technical (and playing ability) difficulties? Of all 3 mm the first has to be the most difficult, no?
Joy

[Rutradelusasa]

I've played the whole 14th Sonata (let's called it this way, he hated this name...) and it is not very difficult. Of course you MUST feel this music in order to play it better and it goes much easier when you understand it. The third concerto is not one of the hardest ones, but it is more difficult than the sonata. I think that the 4th Concerto is harder than the 5th, even though many think otherwise and I also think that the 23th Soanta and the 29th are equally chanllenging, being the ones I fear the most...

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
There's no question The Appassionata has got to be one of the hardest but what about Piano Sonata #8 Opus 13 "The Pathetique"? The 2nd movement (which happens to be my personal favourite) so moving...so beautiful...But what about the 1st and 3rd mm regarding technical (and playing ability) difficulties? Of all 3 mm the first has to be the most difficult, no?
Joy

The first movement is the most difficult out of the three, but the Pathetique as a whole is one of the easiest Beethoven sonatas. So get practising those tremolos!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
The first movement is the most difficult out of the three, but the Pathetique as a whole is one of the easiest Beethoven sonatas. So get practising those tremolos!

Yes, Sir! I will, Sir! (Imagine a salute). But seriously, that has been a problem area for me for years. (I'm left handed! What can I say?) I know, I'm making excuses.
Joy

[oboe_15]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
[B]I've played the whole 14th Sonata (let's called it this way, he hated this name...) and it is not very difficult. Of course you MUST feel this music in order to play it better and it goes much easier when you understand it. The third concerto is not one of the hardest ones, but it is more difficult than the sonata.

Are you sure, I mean, The appegio thing is really annoying, the concerto is lovely and just brilliant. But saying that the concerto is more harder. NO WAY! The sonata (mainly the third movement in question) is (I think) ALOT HARDER! And atleast the concerto is some what sight readable!

Beethoven Rocks!

oboe_15